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- early 1960's 186 with multi-spidercracked bell (great everything else - including rotors, but dark brown, which - literally - "will buff out")
- 1980's S186 (French rim) bell with a cracked rim and a small tear.

The 1960's kranz was removed repaired, and the flange on top was opened up. The lower part of the rest of the Miraphone bell was salvaged and repurposed to convert a King recording bell to a King upright bell.
The steel hoop inside the kranz (yes, kranz's feature reinforcing steel hoops tucked inside of them) was removed cleaned up, straightened up, the track for it in the kranz cleaned out, and the steel hoop was reinstalled in the kranz.
The S186 no-kranz (regular French rim) bell was cut down the the required diameter to fit the old-days 420mm kranz diameter (c. 415mm for the bell itself...so the bell is now "rimless")
The kranz is being transplanted on the (now) cut-down S186 bell.

I've gotten this far (time to go to bed).
I dunno if I'll be lucky enough to make it go on the rest of the way, but it's looking sorta promising...
This is NOT easy, because NEITHER the repaired bell NOR the repaired flange are perfectly round nor perfectly level...ie. Obviously NEITHER are fresh off the spinning lathe in Waldkraiburg. BOTH were pretty rough - as you might guess...so there's a bunch of "encouraging", going on here.

If I'm successful, all that will be left will be to solder the bottom edge of the kranz to the bell.

(I have a band director customer who has bought Miraphones from me - over the years. They're ready for another...I have the beautiful new/old stock 420mm bell, but - well - I'd rather not "spend" that bell on this tuba.)

Mr. bell, meet Mr. kranz.
Mr. kranz, meet Mr. bell.




This is just a bit trickier than swappin' out a spit cork...

Good thing the "f"s match

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:49 pm If I'm successful, all that will be left will be to solder the bottom edge of the kranz to the bell.

Am I wrong in thinking that some kranzen, in ca. 1900s-1920s instruments, were not soldered, and simply fit to the bell?

arpthark wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 10:17 am

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:49 pm If I'm successful, all that will be left will be to solder the bottom edge of the kranz to the bell.

Am I wrong in thinking that some kranzen, in ca. 1900s-1920s instruments, were not soldered, and simply fit to the bell?

Often the lip wasn't/isn't soldered, but (usually) the tapered surface (bell exterior) is soldered.

I'm thinking that - in recent times (??) - Miraphone has been soldering BOTH ends. This defines it as much safer for when silver plating is requested, because soldering BOTH ends of a kranz prevents silver plating solution from finding its way between the kranz and bell (as silver plating solution - leaching back out from between the bell and the kranz - will badly discolor and etch the silver plating on the bell interior).

btw...If soldering a kranz (and the person doing it would prefer to have it look like $h!t), the thing to do is to heat the kranz. (ie. - sarcasm - NOT) The BELL (and not the kranz) is where the heat must be focused - to not cause the kranz to warp up away from the bell.

I still haven't finished this, but I'm convinced that it's going to turn out fine.

The body that it's going on was very very dark brown with very good valves that do not rattle in their casings. It dates back to 1962. I know this, because even though the bell is not with the body, a school system scratched its serial number and year on to one of the inner lower body bows... it's a number well below 2000.

I started working on the body today - not because I'm trying to get it finished up quickly to sell to the school that wants it, but because an ambitious middle school aged young man is going to get a brand new John packer JP 379B rotary copy of a Cerveny Arion from me, and it's not quite going to arrive in time for regional tryouts this coming month.

I'm going to get the body straightened out pretty good, get the valves working well, and TEMPORARILY stick on another Miraphone bell (not YET the "kranzplant" bell) that's got a bunch of spider cracks all over the flare, so he'll have a nice-sounding instrument to audition with. At that point he's going to hand it back to me, his JP379B will have arrived, and I'm going to finish restoring this Miraphone (WITH the kranzplant bell) and then sell it to that private Catholic school - that has bought several other 186s from me over the years.

I'm thinking that this body must have been one that formerly had a detachable recording bell, because the angle of what was left of the mouthpipe dipped down low, probably out of necessity to be attached to the lower bell portion.

I acid cleaned the body today and got all the valves and slides out. It's now clean on the inside and all the dark brown is gone from the outside. The upper bow nickel cap has cracks in it, but I remembered that - in the attic - was an old satin silver Miraphone upper bow with a cap on it, so I'm going to do a cap transplant, and then buff all of the silver off of the transplanted upper nickel cap.

I found a regular-bent vintage186 mouthpipe that needs a few dents removed - but doesn't have any red rot, and that mouthpipe will find its way onto this instrument as well.

This should end up being a good instrument.

I might post a few pictures of the temporary loaner version of the tuba before handing it off to that kid to use at his tryout. It ain't going to be pretty...

(He's got a school instrument to use that is a four-valve small bore 3/4 size, but this Miraphone should sound much better for his tryout. Just in case I might have gotten sick or something and didn't get this Miraphone in playing shape for him to borrow, I did fix his 3/4 tuba up to decent condition for him. Typically (as with a typical school-owned four valve instrument), his fourth valve didn't work. :facepalm2

Also, though I really don't accept students, I gave him > a < lesson on his tryout materials. Hopefully he'll do well.

The rest of the tuba it's probably something for which I paid very little. Over the years, I've learned that the less I pay for something like a distressed 186, the more "manufacturing" type of work I have to do to get it sellable, rather than just some easy repair work.

Oh well, this thing sat up there for decades, and it's time to turn it into money.

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:49 pm (I have a band director customer who has bought Miraphones from me - over the years.

(Off topic:) Why band directors buy these thin-metal, tall-bell instruments is a mystery to me. They're ripe for youngsters' careless handling and well-meant mishaps.

UncleBeer wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:08 pm

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 8:49 pm (I have a band director customer who has bought Miraphones from me - over the years.

(Off topic:) Why band directors buy these thin-metal, tall-bell instruments is a mystery to me. They're ripe for youngsters' careless handling and well-meant mishaps.

At least he's not buying Yamaha stuff.
... and I'm pretty sure that Miraphone instruments are thicker than they were when they were handmade (other than very special things like my model 98, which I'm convinced is only about .5mm thick, and handmade). Further, this instrument I'm working on right now is thicker than one might expect, and I believe it is because I'm doing the first restoration on it and it hasn't had the effing crap buffed out of it previously. Additionally, I'm going to leave just about all the scratches in it, shine it up, and shoot lacquer on it.
Doubling back to the thickness of this 1962 instrument, this is no .5mm thick instrument. I'm sure that this ~particular~ one is at least .6mm thick, having worked on a whole bunch of dent removal over the last day or two. I'm not trying to start any argument with you or anyone, and I really don't mean to contradict, but I'm just reporting what I'm finding - working on this particular instrument.
===================
I can't argue with the fact that they sound good and play in tune (realize that yamabot band directors are paying just as much for those treacherous 641 instruments), but/yet I'm the one who keeps saying that something like a King sousaphone - which plays in tune as well, but rig it up with a three valve compensating system, make them as thick as they were in the past - would be a wonderful instrument to use either outside marching around or indoors playing Holst, Hindemith, Grainger, or whatever. (concert-schmonsert: John Philip Sousa rarely had his band to march anywhere, and they used sousaphones, as did most high school bands well into the '60s and '70s - for EVERYTHING, until federal money started flowing into local school systems - particularly after Carter corrupted education by creating the Department of Education in 1979 on his way out - and everyone got snooty-poot, acting like kids need to be all playing on professional instruments - and at the expense of everyone else ).
=====================
I'm finding that I'm really not wanting to set this down, and I'm getting it much closer to ready to sell then I planned to prior to loaning it to the middle school kid. The only thing I'm NOT going to do is to install that beautiful bell with the transplanted garland on it, and I'm going to put the junk spider-cracked bell on it for him to use for his tryout. I'm using a lot of my shortcut techniques, and you folks may be skeptical, but I've got the top bow and bottom bow looking really nice with both of them having been quite distressed and without removing either one of them from the rest of the body, and without removing the bottom boat cap, and even though this is a 1962 instrument with that really tall seam running down the center of the bottom bow (under the cap).

... I didn't mean for this to sound like some diatribe, but I've been working hard on this instrument until I just now came in for dinner, and I had it on my mind.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:56 pm
Doubling back to the thickness of this 1962 instrument, this is no .5mm thick instrument. I'm sure that this ~particular~ one is at least .6mm thick, having worked on a whole bunch of dent removal over the last day or two.

Interesting. just measured the mid '70's BBb 186 here, and bell thickness is only 0.32mm.

That's pretty interesting. I know that you are plenty smart/observant enough to be able to tell the difference between refinished and not. One thing I will NOT buy to flip is a refinished Miraphone. Most of them are shiny objects with worn (if not music store repair guy ruined) rotors, clanky linkage, and paper-thin bells.

That thickness that you report is approaching thick foil. You're talking about .014" or something. Half of a millimeter is about .0195" or something, and 6/10 is about .024", yes?

This one I'm working on (body) is an oldie. Thinking back, it has been true that - at least on the outer bows on - the old ones don't get smashed up as badly as those made in the 1970s. Of course the 1970s bells all get creamed. Since I got wrecklessly brave and cut the rim off of an S series bell (from back when they had no kranz) and am transplanting a kranz onto that bell, this bell is pretty thick.

I'm pretty sure that I'm remembering that this tuba was originally a detachable recording bell model. I believe I remember unsoldering the flare from the bell elbow from this one, and I'm pretty sure I transplanted it to another Miraphone with a trashed flare, and made that other tuba into a "shorty" 186 and then lengthened the main slide to compensate.

In the shop attic, there are actually things that are easier to restore than this - and that would sell for more once restored, but I'm grabbing them as people ask whether I have something or not, and I'm trying to empty out that attic before I croak.

@Doc
I'm not forgetting you.

Here are some "so far" pictures.
I included ONE picture of an area that I have NOT YET tackled (but not a difficult area), which is the two curved parts leading into the main slide outside slide tubes.

This is a "scrounged" 186:
- body and valves from an old recording bell 186 (mostly because all four rotors are in SUPERB/NEVER-DAMAGED condition), plus almost-completely-gone oem (from 1962) nitrocellulose lacquer (ie. no problems with stripping lacquer).
- an upper bow CAP from an old satin silver 186 upper bow (attic)
- a repairable not-rotten mouthpipe (REGULAR style, instead of recording style) from the 1970's
- a 1980's (??) "S"-186 bell (thick, with a French rim), YET, I CUT OFF the rim and installed a salvaged-from-a-trashed-bell-early-1960's-bell kranz onto it.
- salvaged 1970's linkage (because two of the original linkage's T-joints were hopelessly corroded)

It this point, I've removed NOTHING (other than the bell - removed long ago, mouthpipe - again: the dips-down-too-low recording-style mouthpipe, the trashed oem upper bow cap, and some of those tear-flanged do-dads) from the instrument). MOSTLY, I've used magnet techniques (along with a bit of burnishing, and some precision annealing). The only thing that has met up with the dent machine - so far - has been the replacement upper bow cap (prior to installation), and the large (open) end of the bottom bow.
@UncleBear
What's shown here (1962 instrument - never refinished) weighs 10.2 lbs...
- no bell
- no rotors
- no linkage/carriage bar/paddles
- no keel
- no slides
- no solder-on do-dads
- no coating of lacquer

Someone of which I'm sorta proud is the repaired YET NOT REMOVED #4 circuit - which was all smashed up, from the instrument (apparently BOTH right-side-up and upside-down) having been HUNG on that loop of cylindrical tubing...so please check out that handiwork (annealing, magnets, hammer, etc.)

Looking at these pictures, I don't think anybody can tell whether the instrument's dented or not - with all the brown mixed in with the black and the shiny brass and the halfway shiny brass. Anyway, it's coming along.

ok...I'm sorta feeling lucky and proud, but way luckier than proud.

All four of the 1962 beefy linkage assemblies were in place, none of them were worn, and EVEN none of their steel bearing S-arm inserts had any play in them...but (sadly) a couple of the horizontals (on their T-joints) were seized... I could have rebuilt them, but (easier) was to fish through all my spare S-arm linkages, find (one each) a 1, 2, 3, and 4, and fit them to the instrument.

done. One of their hinge tubes' lengths (#2) fit perfectly, and the other three had to be shortened to fit the carriage bar's uprights.

(btw...The carriage rod is PERFECTLY straight...NEVER damaged.)

All of the 1970's swapped-in linkage/paddle assemblies still had their nylon inserts in place, and in good condition.

The #4 was new and had some (looked to be decades old) price tag on it of $140-something dollars.

(I've scrounged a bunch of them - over the years - when someone was offering one of them - or a bag of them - for cheap...and don't sell them (as this is an obvious reason why I don't).

The geometry is SLIGHTLY different with these (70's / lighter construction), and the hinge arms dip down LOWER than those sturdier 1960's ones - so I spaced up the carriage bar with (actually) 2 + 2 + 2 of those Miraphone PISTON guide brass washers (1mm thick each), so I elevated the carriage bar by 2 mm's to get clearance (from rubbing on the the C-flanges of the carriage bar brackets)

Everything moves, nothing wiggles, and (now) it's time to go on to the dents around the main slide, mounting the temporary (spider-cracks) bell, mounting a mouthpipe tube, and sticking on do-dads (thumb ring/strap ring/lyre holder/keel).

With the (eventual) kranzplanted bell, this tuba certainly won't look new, but it will be dent-free, shiny, lacquered, feature quiet operation, and (yeah) be sorta scratchy...but with no measurable quantity of metal on the buffing room floor.

Later...I'll show you the 4th slide...SOME of you have seen them like this one, but (I'd wager) MOST of you have NOT...They should STILL make them the way this one is made.

Today, I'll probably take off that 4th-rotor-to-main-slide connector (upside-down question-mark-shaped) and smooth it out.

The last one of those that I did (the recent Cerveny 681 repair thread) was nearly smushed flat, and I used one of those flexible drivers to beat stuff down through it.

This one is only dented (and - thankfully - not smushed). With the Cerveny, my thumb slipped off the top of that attached brass driver handle, and I cut a nice chunk of my pinky finger nearly completely off...but I immediately cleaned it, taped it up (was a candidate for stitches, but I was too busy), it actually barely bled, and it's healing quite nicely...It was considerably deeper than only "skin-deep", but is already to the point that I'm only putting a bandage over it when in the shop, and am not bothering to keep it dry - when shower or bathing, Also, it's to the point that (when I bump it against things) it's only a minor "ouch", rather than with me writhing in pain for several seconds.

Yes, the chunk was 3/4 cut off, yet (as can been seen) only one of the three sides still features a scab. (Thankfully, I've always healed quickly.)

I made it out to the shop after dinner and got those dents in the main slide area removed.
(There were more than of which I was originally aware.)

Some were quite challenging to remove (as I was absolutely determined to NOT remove that last "dipsy-doodle" branch (just past the main slide - where the 186 begins to expand)...but I got both that and the 4th rotor connector smoothed out.

This thing is getting pretty close to being a tuba...(again: with a TEMPORARY bell - as I'm NOT loaning it to a kid with the FINAL bell installed).

The ONLY parts of this tuba that has met up with the Ferree's dent machine has been the single-layer brass on the large leg of the bottom bow, and the (removed from the instrument) upper bow cap.

I had to do some "business" (tippity-typity) stuff LATE tonight, so I didn't bring the newly-repaired parts in, and nor did I take phone pics of them.

I've got the crap/temporary bell on this thing, and I'm working on putting together a mouthpipe for this instrument, so I don't have to buy one from the factory. They've changed the mouthpipe geometry anyway, and I would have to also buy a stupid bell brace to make their new mouthpipe work...plus: time/money. I'm also going to do a little trick with the receiver, to keep everything looking original.

This thing will be playing tomorrow.

There's no more scab on my finger, and it's completely unnoticeable. I'm also regaining feeling on that area on the surface.

OK...
Earlier, I promised to show a picture of a vintage 186 B-flat 4th slide. Some have seen these, and others have not.
Guess what...?? F and C are able to be played down to pitch.



PLAYABLE FOR LOANING OUT TO A LOCAL STUDENT UNTIL THEIR NEW JP379B ARRIVES: (TRYOUTS NEXT WEEKEND)
(THEY ARE BUYING ONE OF THESE FROM US - FOR WAY LESS THAN THE WEB PRICE...I LOVE THESE TUBAS !
https://jpmusicalinstruments.com/produc ... ng-bb-tuba )
As seen, I've installed the crappy/temporary bell (as the "kranzplant" bell will eventually be installed on this instrument, prior to selling this instrument to a local school).


MOUTHPIPE:
1/ I'm not interested in spending the money on a new one, having to ALSO buy and install a bell brace (as the new braces are WIDER, which changed the geometry of the mouthpipe bends).
- I'm not interested in WAITING on a new one to be shipped.
- The large half of one of my "scrap" mouthpipes was very restorable, and free of red-rot.

...so what I did was to cut the small end (curve around the bell) off of that salvaged mouthpipe and bent a replacement small half (which matched the taper of the discarded portion). Those who are familiar with pre-unification (Geretsried) Meinl-Weston rotary tubas will recall that their mouthpipes were often TWO-piece, and what I've done here is no different.
ALSO... Some are not aware that the "receiver" on many European-made rotary tubas is made the same way as with most French horn receivers, whereas the mouthpipe tube ITSELF is flared out at the end and functions as the receiver. The nickel or brass that you see is nothing more than a piece if tubing soldered on OVER the flared area (for stability).
To keep this looking as original as possible, I've cut the "receiver" off flush (from the small-end of of one of the unsalvageable mouthpipes) and will mount it on my crappy lathe, rig up a boring bar, and cut away the mouthpipe tubing from the back half-inch or so of that receiver assembly. Once I've done that, I will cut this mouthpipe off, butt it up flush to the small end of the flared area (inside), and - simply- solder it in place...(I just don't like seeing American-style/looking receivers on Miraphone tubas, EVEN THOUGH (de facto) that's what I'm actually doing with this one.





RECEIVER BRACE FLANGE TAPED IN PLACE TO THE BELL, AND NOT-YET-TRIMMED MOUTHPIPE TAPED DOWN (COLINEAR) TO THE RECEIVER FLANGE SURFACE)


YOU MIGHT ALSO NOTICE THAT THIS OLD-SCHOOL (61 YEARS OLD) RECEIVER BRACE IS TALLER THAN THOSE MADE LATER.


bloke "By the time this kid no longer needs to borrow this, I'll have the real bell (top of this thread) ready to install."

I've got this thing ready to loan to the kid for the weekend...

(crappy temporary bell mounted and 1/2-bloke-made two-piece mouthpipe - with o.e.m. receiver spliced on - thanks to the crappy lathe and a boring bar)

...I called the mom, and we might meet tomorrow for a hand-off (with her taking a detour from her workplace to home, getting off at a freeway overpass c. 20 minutes from blokeplace), so the kid (again, as the parents paid me for a new John Packer JP379B - which is in transit) will have something that plays nicely, for his Saturday audition.

The following rhetoric is not meant to insult anyone's else vintage-or-recently-made 186 B-flat, but (based on all of them that I've played, over the years), I would probably wager that - after having play-tested this one - at least 80% of those of you who own this model would be eager to trade (particularly after I stick the "kranzplant" bell onto it, and its polished, lacquered, and ready to be sold to the private school that ordered it from me)...REALLY good response/sound and REALLY good tuning characteristics...and YES! The 3-bow tuning slide SOLVES the sharp-no-matter-what 4th circuit issue. WHY did they ABANDON this...!?!?



Yes...MANY things are messy...but "do not affect the playability of the instrument in any way".

(I canNOT achieve good resolution - taking pictures of tubas indoors...' sorry.)




oh yeah...and butchered-finger self-treatment update.
(At my age, they've coerced/forced me into Medicommie, so I could have had this sewn up for free - with all of you schmucks...and in reality myself as well...paying for it, but that would have WASTED several hours of my life...and what do we ONLY really have in our lives? yep: TIME.)
...so it looks AT LEAST as good as it would have - had I had it stitched, I have feeling there, and it's no longer sensitive/painful if bumped...so 2 - 3 weeks for complete recovery...

The parent - who paid for a JP379B, and actually that instrument is headed this way as I speak (as the scheduled container of JP instruments docked on schedule) - met me at a freeway overpass yesterday afternoon, and I handed off this Miraphone for his son to use at tryouts on Saturday. As I've mentioned several times, I'm certainly not worried about this bell, but I just hope none of the rest of the instrument - that is completely dent-free, now - gets whacked between now and the end of Saturday. Even better would be for that John Packer 379B to arrive tomorrow or the next day, and for me to be able to retrieve this Miraphone before it's taken to some school gymnasium, where a whole bunch of tryouting juveniles will be running around striving to put dents into tubas.
I slipped it into that Jakob Winter hard case - that I recently / finally acquired for my own F tuba, but guess what? The parent told me that - at least last year - applicants/contestants/whatever-they-are-called were not allowed to bring their cases into the school.

UPDATE
The truck depot called about three minutes after I posted this, the JP379B is arriving there tomorrow, and the customer and I are going to swap my loaned Miraphone for their new JP379B at the depot, so my Miraphone gets a reprieve from hundreds of children slinging their instruments at it.

The kid practiced on the Miraphone last night, and the mother reported this to me:
"WOW !!! MOM, YOU'VE GOT TO COME HEAR THIS THING !!!"