Eb Tuba Mouthpiece question

[jurgengyns]

I recently bought a EEb bastuba from Boosey & Hawkes "Imperial" model serial number 595285 dating to around 1977.
It's a frosted silver 3valve(compensating) model with schining silver accents. The valves work amazingly wel and besides a few bumps and brazes it's in a remarcable condition. It didn't come with a mouthpiece. So i bought a Denis Wick 4 mouthpiece with it. I plays okey like this. But nothing compared to my Besson International BBb bass. I noticed that modern Eb or small shank mouthpiece sits in it really deep. It fits though. It just looks off.
Most BBb tuba mouthpieces won't fit but i tried a few and my Herritage 2L mouthpiece fits tho this won't go deep enough only 1.5cm.
But,with the 2L,it plays so much better. The instrument blows so much easier and has such a rich and deep sound to it. Down side, it's really flat with the 2L because it's not far enough in.

So which mouthpiece is reccomended in such a case ? Or, should i get the mouthpiece adaptor/receiever modified for the 2L moutpiece or get the shank of the Denis Wick 4 enlarged ?
I guess i would need a size in between a large and small shank.

[PlayTheTuba]

Sounds like the Eb has the small European or "British" or old Eb shank. Similar in size to a Bass trombone shank.

Denis Wick non "L" are small shanks and should definitely fit. Since you already like the 2L, just get a Denis Wick 2.

Denis Wick 1-5 non-"L" can be bought new with the classic outer shell. IF you want a heritage style outer shell, I think there's one used gold plated on eBay. Denis wick doesn't make the Heritage style with non-L shanks anymore.

Other options include

Sellsmanburger, also known as "blokepieces" 3 piece steel mouthpieces

Houser 3 piece steel mouthpieces

Doug Elliot 3 piece mouthpieces

Kelly lexan, brass, steel, 2 piece steel, heavy wall steel etc. With the "small" shanks. Heard the shanks run a bit bigger compared to the Denis Wicks though.

[2nd tenor]

I recently bought a EEb bastuba from Boosey & Hawkes "Imperial" model serial number 595285 dating to around 1977.
It's a frosted silver 3valve(compensating) model with schining silver accents. The valves work amazingly wel and besides a few bumps and brazes it's in a remarcable condition. It didn't come with a mouthpiece. So i bought a Denis Wick 4 mouthpiece with it. I plays okey like this. But nothing compared to my Besson International BBb bass. I noticed that modern Eb or small shank mouthpiece sits in it really deep. It fits though. It just looks off.
Most BBb tuba mouthpieces won't fit but i tried a few and my Herritage 2L mouthpiece fits tho this won't go deep enough only 1.5cm.
But,with the 2L,it plays so much better. The instrument blows so much easier and has such a rich and deep sound to it. Down side, it's really flat with the 2L because it's not far enough in.

So which mouthpiece is reccomended in such a case ? Or, should i get the mouthpiece adaptor/receiever modified for the 2L moutpiece or get the shank of the Denis Wick 4 enlarged ?
I guess i would need a size in between a large and small shank.

Such old British Instruments were originally built to play with a small shank mouthpiece.

Your instrument may have been built in low pitch which was slightly lower than A440, sometimes that’s an issue and sometimes it’s not.

I’ve used Wick range 2,3,4 and 5 mouthpieces in Besson Eb Tubas; all of them worked but I think that the bigger the piece the richer the sound. To my mind a Wick 3 is about right; a 4 is a bit small (weaker) and a 2 gives marginal gains over a 3 but isn’t as easy to use. The 3’s aren’t too hard to find - I’ve a spare - but 2’s seem rare to me - I’m looking for one here in the UK but nothing reasonably priced has appeared.

In an ideal world you’d have the mouthpiece receiver changed to accept the standard Bach and Wick L size, stuff a Bach 18 in it and all will be sort of well.

Incidentally those 3 valve compensators aren’t much like here in the UK now, but I recall talking to an ex-military Bandsman who reckoned that they were really good. I believe that there’s a mod available to add a fourth valve (rotary) but suggest you just enjoy what you have and play up the octave when necessary.

TLDR: Try a Wick 3.

[donn]

I noticed that modern Eb or small shank mouthpiece sits in it really deep. It fits though. It just looks off.

I assume this means, the Denis Wick 4 goes in really deep like that. Do you suppose you could provide a measurement, or even a photo? The replies are assuming you have the receiver that this mouthpiece was made for.

IDown side, it's really flat with the 2L because it's not far enough in.

Because of the extra length, one or two cm? If you pull the tuning slide in a cm, does that go away? I'm not doubting that it plays flat, but ... if as proposed above, you got a new receiver so the 2L would fit better, are you sure it wouldn't still play flat?

[splat]

i use a denis wick '2' in my Imperial BBb 3 valve compensator... i think it's around 1954-ish.

the cheapest place i could get it from (including all the shipping stuff) was https://www.thomann.de

(i find the 2 a little bit too narrow for my fat lips. i really want a pt-50 that's got a little shank but i don't think anyone makes them...so i'll try a denis wick '1' sometime soon instead)

[PlayTheTuba]

I really want a pt-50 that's got a little shank but I don't think anyone makes them...so i'll try a denis wick '1' sometime soon instead)

Not sure how similar the Kelly-50 is the a pt/rt 50 is BUT the 2 piece versions can be paired with the "small shank"

Contour weight. Or what I'd call regular weight...
https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmstai ... /index.asp

Magnum Weight
https://www.kellymouthpieces.com/kmstai ... /index.asp

OR

If you don't want to get the receiver swapped or reamed... Maybe get in contact with Robert Tucci and see if they will be willing to make a rt-50 with a modified shank? Or maybe contact the email is this web link below

https://profmouthpiece.com/collections/ ... outhpieces

@jurgengyns
As the others have mentioned the Eb tuba you have might be in low pitch too.

[jurgengyns]

I noticed that modern Eb or small shank mouthpiece sits in it really deep. It fits though. It just looks off.

I assume this means, the Denis Wick 4 goes in really deep like that. Do you suppose you could provide a measurement, or even a photo? The replies are assuming you have the receiver that this mouthpiece was made for.

IDown side, it's really flat with the 2L because it's not far enough in.

Because of the extra length, one or two cm? If you pull the tuning slide in a cm, does that go away? I'm not doubting that it plays flat, but ... if as proposed above, you got a new receiver so the 2L would fit better, are you sure it wouldn't still play flat?

It's (the DW4)in too deep. it seems normally any mouthpiece on/in any brass instrument has about 50% insertion of the shank in the adaptor.
1 or 2 cm at the mouthpiece makes a lot of difference in tuning my 2 L is a few milimeters longer than my ultra AT3U and it makes at least a cm difference in the tuning slide adjustment. the closer to your mouth the adjustment is made the more influence it has. It's because sound is a wave/ripple and distance allready travelled and the diameter of the tubing all influence the amaount of pitch correction. F.E. i can remove my bell from my sousaphone and it still plays in BBb.

I added pictures to show the different set ups. The last one shows how far in it should be, but obviously it's sitting in loose like that. it's just an example of how far i think it should be inside.

[Dents Be Gone!]

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.

[donn]

it seems normally any mouthpiece on/in any brass instrument has about 50% insertion of the shank in the adaptor.

Not for me. I think the Denis Wick 2 is a poor fit in your BBb, and I'd be happy with the way that Denis Wick 4 fits. And I think you're going to have to be, but you could try a Kelly - the small shank polycarbonate 25 I got from them was distinctly larger than the Denis Wick small shank. I personally like the Denis Wick 5, by the way, but never tried a 4.

1 or 2 cm at the mouthpiece makes a lot of difference in tuning my 2 L is a few milimeters longer than my ultra AT3U and it makes at least a cm difference in the tuning slide adjustment. the closer to your mouth the adjustment is made the more influence it has. It's because sound is a wave/ripple and distance allready travelled and the diameter of the tubing all influence the amaount of pitch correction. F.E. i can remove my bell from my sousaphone and it still plays in BBb.

Interesting theory.

[Mary Ann]

This is pure heresy but I put blue painter's tape on my Kelly 5G to get it to fit in the euph without rattling around, and for me that is working, "gap" or no "gap." Not suggesting that is a permanent solution, but putting tape on it to make it fit where you want would tell you if that solves your flatness problem.

[PlayTheTuba]

His mouthpiece sits too far out on the Eb tuba. Causing it to be too flat or even flatter. And the Denis Wick 2 I own I purposely let it go in farther with a plastic sleeve (I could use tape too, technically) helps flat tubas not be flat... Like a Conn 3j CC I've been using for the past few months...

At least the op's Eb tuba can still fit regular mouthpiece in it's receiver, unlike my low pitch Salvation Army Eb (which I added tubing to play in D natural) with it's Euphonium medium shank . I'll get it reamed at some point or swapped out. And before I'll forget I'll try to take photos of the "D" tubas receiver and share it.

And, I've made a plastic adapter for the "D" tuba with the other mouthpieces I own. The tuba does indeed play a lot flatter because how far the mouthpieces sit out.

[jurgengyns]

it seems normally any mouthpiece on/in any brass instrument has about 50% insertion of the shank in the adaptor.

Not for me. I think the Denis Wick 2 is a poor fit in your BBb, and I'd be happy with the way that Denis Wick 4 fits. And I think you're going to have to be, but you could try a Kelly - the small shank polycarbonate 25 I got from them was distinctly larger than the Denis Wick small shank. I personally like the Denis Wick 5, by the way, but never tried a 4.

1 or 2 cm at the mouthpiece makes a lot of difference in tuning my 2 L is a few milimeters longer than my ultra AT3U and it makes at least a cm difference in the tuning slide adjustment. the closer to your mouth the adjustment is made the more influence it has. It's because sound is a wave/ripple and distance allready travelled and the diameter of the tubing all influence the amaount of pitch correction. F.E. i can remove my bell from my sousaphone and it still plays in BBb.

Interesting theory.

The 2L fits very nicely on the BBb but not on the EEb. It sticks out too much making it flat indeed.
The 4 fits the EEb but doesnt play as well as the 2L. Ideally I'd have the exact same cup of the 2L but mounted on the shank of the 4.

[PlayTheTuba]

@jurgengyns

Here is some links of places that might have the 2 NOT 2L in stock. I didn't find any used 2's either classic or heritage styles with my quick Google searching.

These ones are the Denis Wick 2 classic, same outer shell as your Denis Wick 4 but with the smaller shank.

Make sure to calculate the shipping for Thomann. Amazon only has the gold plated version in stock.

https://www.hickeys.com/music/brass/tuba_and_euphonium/accessories/tuba_mouthpieces/products/sku094152-denis-wick-classic-2-tuba-mouthpiece-small-shank-.php

https://www.thomannmusic.com/denis_wick_5286_tuba_2.htm

https://www.amazon.com/Denis-Wick-Gold-plated-Mouthpiece-Small/dp/B0002F7GZU/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?c=ts&keywords=Tuba+Mouthpieces&qid=1698764286&refinements=p_89%3ADenis+Wick&s=musical-instruments&sr=1-7&ts_id=11969341

When the URLs get parsed for whatever reason the Amazon link disappears. So just copy paste.

[donn]

I see Kelly's story on their shank sizes is "receiver diameter." In the case of the small shank, 0.55 inches. I don't have one any more, but their figures for larger shank sizes ... well, the 0.58 inch "American-shank" may resemble your old sousaphone bits, but even my Kanstul Eb has a 0.60 receiver exit. I've mentioned before that a lot of fairly old Schilke and other tuba brands have been "European" size before that was a thing; no idea where Kelly is on that. As I said, their small shank seemed larger than Denis Wick's, but if their measurement is accurate, and you have calipers to measure your own, just measure the shank where it emerges from the receiver (as in my opinion that's more reliable than directly measuring the end of a tapered interior.)

[PlayTheTuba]

...I uhh should know better... Considering more car maintenance I need to do and pay for... other personal stuff And other tuba maintenance stuff I wanted to do in the Summer but life likes throwing curves balls...

I bought a a pair of 2-piece steel Kelly Mouthpieces with the contour weight. At the time of this post I bought

Cups:
x-small cup
Kellyberg cup

Shanks:
small shank
euro shank

When I have time in the future and don't forget, I'll maybe create a new post. Similar to the posts like your section photo, instruments in your collection etc. And make it a post about what's your current mouthpiece collection. I'll include the tubas and their various shanks that I own and how far they go into the receivers.

Assuming the TFNFJ (tubaforum.net 'friendly' jury) is cool with that.

[splat]

Cups:
x-small cup
Kellyberg cup

Shanks:
small shank
euro shank

When I have time in the future and don't forget, I'll maybe create a new post. Similar to the posts like your section photo, instruments in your collection etc. And make it a post about what's your current mouthpiece collection. I'll include the tubas and their various shanks that I own and how far they go into the receivers.

Assuming the TFNFJ (tubaforum.net 'friendly' jury) is cool with that.

i am no juror and exist only as random internet words on your screen - but i would enjoy seeing some photos if you remember to not forget

[PlayTheTuba]

...i would enjoy seeing some photos if you remember to not forget

Definitely will!

I'll take a photo of all the tuba mouthpieces I have acquired and make a new thread.

And how deep they go for the horns that I have. Most likely after December 14th I'll take the time a take a lot of pictures. Or if the school work lightens up somehow in the few weeks.

But, the Kelly steel small shank does fit into my salvation army Eb "D" tuba. It might stick out a little farther compared to the Denis Wick mouthpiece but not too badly in my opinion... Seeing as the shank in that horn is supposedly an Euphonium medium and not a small tuba shank. I'll eventuality have that shank reamed...

[donn]

If I were playing that 3J, I'd look for a mouthpiece that fit better. Marcinkiewicz shanks, for example, in my experience are classic American size, not the Schilke et al. plus/Euro size. They always play better, when they fit into the receiver most of the way.

[marccromme]

Easiest solution is to get the receiver reamed or swapped to standard American size, or if you wish, Euro size. Then you can use any standard mouthpiece.

I had the same horn, and used either a DW 3 (small shank) or a DW ATU 4 with the shank turned down on a lathe, both worked really fine with the horn. The DW 4 was too small.

Dont bother worriing about the insertion depth of the DW, if it plays in tune.....

[PlayTheTuba]

If I were playing that 3J, I'd look for a mouthpiece that fit better. Marcinkiewicz shanks, for example, in my experience are classic American size, not the Schilke et al. plus/Euro size. They always play better, when they fit into the receiver most of the way.

I'll definitely try to keep that in mind! Although, I am only borrowing the 3j tuba, plus if it were mine I would shorten it. It plays too flat even with me using small "Old Eb or British" shank mouthpieces inserted deeper than an normal mouthpieces would go.