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Anyone have experience with the Hirsbrunner 290? Intonation? Weight? I know HB is known for exceptional quality, but curious about known issues, and overall playability.

Tuning is slightly less quirky than with the piston models. Were I told that I must play a Hirsbrunner C tuba, I would probably choose this model. Oddly - even though the bugle is the same - this rotary model consistently seems to resonate more nicely than the piston models, with that “hollow sound” thing - about which some people remark with this maker - not being a factor.
Many old ones feature plastic-sandwich rotors - with which some people reported problems.
Weight: Most Hirsbrunner tubas seem to be built of NOT particularly thin-wall brass, but I would not include “heavy“ as a characteristic, as I would with Kurath tubas.

Caveat: I hope I am commenting on the correct model, and do not have model numbers confused.

I think bloke hit the nail on the head. In my experience it is the most in tune of the three models I've played. It also didn't seem to have the lame low G that the piston version tends to have. If you're interested do watch the rotors as mentioned already. I'm not sure there's a replacement available for those so if you get the crappy plastic ones you might?? be stuck with them.

Joe, you got the model correct - 5 rotary valves. I thought I remembered the weight being an issue. Adams makes the same horn, and you can get it lightER brass, but don't know anyone that has really used one for an extended time and knows the quirks or issues. Just a thought I have been having lately. Likely best just to add a 5th rotor to my old 186

Just a guess... But you might be just as happy with an Alex 163... ?

I’d be OK with putting a valve on your 186…

Also, you could consider loosening up your #4 slide and venting your 4th rotor. There’s a reason that the 4th slide is long and configured like it is on the C model. You can pull it out for F (1-4) and move it around for the notes below F.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:27 pm I’d be OK with putting a valve on your 186…

Also, you could consider loosening up your #4 slide and venting your 4th rotor. There’s a reason that the 4th slide is long and configured like it is on the C model. You can pull it out for F (1-4) and move it around for the notes below F.

The rotors are vented already. I have really grown to like the horn, just issues like adult fingerings for G and Ab at the top of the staff and for middle C. Only slide pulling is 1st and that is within about 1 inch. With 4 valves, the Db is an issue like on almost all horns. Math is funny that way So far, I can play every note in tune on it with some valve/slide pulling combo without lipping, so that is a huge plus. Perhaps it is a late life crisis of just WANTING a new horn. I don't mind selling a bunch of horns and getting a $15-20k horn, but would hate to do that and end up with a nice pretty new horn with as many or more problems than I already have!

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:15 pm Just a guess... But you might be just as happy with an Alex 163... ?

From what I have heard, not a C Alex I have a BBb 163 and love it, I just don't do BBb very comfortably.

Stryk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:14 pm

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:15 pm Just a guess... But you might be just as happy with an Alex 163... ?

From what I have heard, not a C Alex I have a BBb 163 and love it, I just don't do BBb very comfortably.

Give it a try... I think there are definitely issue-free Alexander CC's out there!

I could sell you my stupid-easy-to-play-in-every-conceivable-way $15,000-ish C tuba, but then I wouldn’t play as well anymore, because I use that thing to make it seem as if I play well, when it’s actually the tuba that plays well.

Best tuba ever made .... if you get a good one.

bloke wrote: ↑Sat Oct 10, 2020 9:22 pm I could sell you my stupid-easy-to-play-in-every-conceivable-way $15,000-ish C tuba, but then I wouldn’t play as well anymore, because I use that thing to make it seem as if I play well, when it’s actually the tuba that plays well.

Thor?

tclements wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:41 am Best tuba ever made .... if you get a good one.

They are outstanding in every way.

IMHO the 290's can be outstanding instruments. I sold a REAL GEM to a top level pro (who shall remain nameless unless he decides to chime in of his own accord) years ago. I know he really liked that horn a lot. That horn, my RM 45 and DS are horns I never should have let go. Although I did buy back my DS (featured in the teeny tiny pic on my profile).

I seldom if ever post. I just happen to be on this forum this afternoon and saw this HB2 string.

I have had a HB2 since 1983. I bought it new from Mr. Hirsbrunner in Sumiswald. It had the brass/plastic composite rotors, which did seize when playing outside in hot weather (PA and VA) and sometimes when I played low and load for long periods of time. When they seized it was like they were glued down. This was not just an annoying sticking issue. Not all seized at once, but I kind of remember one would seize, then another, and then a third. After awhile I just ran out if valves.

I had them lapped once by a NYC tech with Hirsbrunner instructions to heat / expand them during lapping. Lapping really didn’t solve the problem for me, but I think others may have had better luck with this solution. I have even heard of some pros using ice packs strapped to the valve section during performances. Yea, I know, kind of ridiculous for an expensive instrument, but I heard that works.

I eventually got brass rotor replacements (just rotors) from Mr. Hirsbrunner back in the 1990’s and had a very good brass tech in Virginia install them. I have not had any issues since. I am not sure if rotor replacements (Hirsbrunner/Adame/supplier) is an option anymore or the cost. I seem to remember my replacements were very reasonable and I never regretted going that route.

My understanding is brass/plastic composite was used to make the valves light and quick. This might have been a good idea on paper, and maybe if all playing is in a very cool concert hall, but I am fine with solid brass with no worries about seizing in the heat. They are not slow in solid brass, but IMO do not compare to the new Mirafone rotors I play tested at Dillons for fun a few years back.

I am not sure what percentage of HB2 had this rotor issue, or when /if HIrsbrunner stopped using plastic, but I know I am not the only person that experienced this. I have heard some never had any issues. I have even heard a simple valve oil choice helped solve this problem, but this was not my experience with my HB2.

As far as my impressions…..well considering I have owned this instrument for almost 40-years, with worts and all, you could conclude I like the tuba, which is very true. The build is top notch. The brass is not Alex thin, but not heavy like a Wilson C. I consider it a very versatile instrument and have used it during my Army years in BQ, band, solos, and the occasional orchestra gig (opera and such). Intonation is good when I am good, but the top space G tends to be sharp, third line D and Db are flat. For some orchestra parts (big and low) in a big orchestra a bigger York style might fit better, but the type of playing I do the HB2 works well. I am NOT big fan of the Hirsbrunner piston tuba and find it is totally different from the rotor horn.

For a lot BQ parts my Eb Besson (15-inch) may work better, but the HB2 does fine with a little more work especially when I am primarily playing C and used to the bigger size, but to my ears the Eb blends better in a BQ. But BQ mates seem to prefer the HB, and the tuba parts are not gymnastic like, so I go with my HB2 and just work little harder vs a bass tuba at times.

I have used different mouthpieces to help with different situations. A PT-36 or Tilz M1 is best for 90% of playing for me, a PT-88 works for the lower bigger stuff, and on occasion a Laskey 30G. Mouthpieces are a more personal thing. I just mention this because I have found a mouthpiece can make a difference with this instrument depending on the situation. I think Hirsbrunner used to ship a Tilz M1 with the HB2, which is similar to a PT/RT36.

Having said all this, if I would not have solved the rotor issue, where hot venues made it an untenable situation, I may have moved on to another C, but the other issue was selling the rotor problem to someone else, which is something I didn’t want to do. So I am glad the brass rotor replacement worked and I am very happy with my HB2. If I ever decide to move on from playing I can in good conscious sell this vintage horn with solid rotors. This horn has been a very good investment for me. I don’t think I have owned anything longer than this. I paid a good amount in 1983 dollars, but considering I have enjoyed playing this horn hours a day, for a few decades, and earned a living along the way, it has been more than worth the price I paid. Sometimes the enjoyment of quality out paces going cheap short term, but this always depends.

A side note….before I bought the HB2 in 1983 I discussed it with my teacher (a pro playing a HB2). I had the rare opportunity to travel to Rudi’s and Sumiswald. We considered a used Alex from a pro Tuba player in Berlin RSO, a Rudy 5/4, and a 3/4 Rudy. I thought the 3/4 was too close in size to the 186 that I was looking to move from and didn’t test one; I know stupid but I was kind of young - should have tested especially since my current teacher won his job on his 3/4. I found the 5/4 too big and might not be as versatile. I liked the Alex, but at the time the HB2 was considered the best C on the market. I liked the HB2 sound, it seemed to slot easily, and ironically the feel of the smooth valves. I had two teachers with HB2s previous to my 1983 search and they had no rotor issues.

Hope this helps.

My understanding after having spoken to Peter Hirsbrunner about the subject is that the 'plastic' respectively Tryplene rotors where the last development step trying to find an economical attractive and efficient lightweight rotary valve construction. The need of lightweight rotors came primarily from their 3 valve compensating system instruments with two double-decker rotary valves. Both inventions got patented; 3 rotary valve compensation in 1968 (1971 US) and Tryplene valves in 1976 (1978 US). Prior to the Tryplene rotors they used titanium rotors and even earlier ‚hollow‘ brass rotors (brass casing with soldered in valve passages). The Tryplene valve sets where built by Meinlschmidt https://www.jm-gmbh.de exclusively for Hirsbrunner.

Greetings from basshorn (who has Tryplene rotors in two and titanium rotors in one of his tubas)

The hollow brass rotors - in my view - were the best idea, and offered the lightest touch of any listed just previously.

bloke wrote: ↑Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:31 pm The hollow brass rotors - in my view - were the best idea, and offered the lightest touch of any listed just previously.

I don't have any experience with hollow rotors and I wonder why beside the more elaborate labor they where abandoned by the manufacturer that had them in their program. Just to show the difference (both rotors are of the same size): the titanium rotor weights 75g vs. the Tryplen at 95g.

Anyway with the possibilities of modern CNC milling there seem to upcoming new lightweight rotor designs.
- Christian Bosc, Italy: https://www.facebook.com/bosccristian/p ... 3610057222
- Ricco Kühn, Germany: https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/ ... /image.png
- Meinlschmidt, Germany: https://www.jm-gmbh.de/en/rotary-valves/trombone/

And for the ones that are not affraid of it, Meinlschmidt is offering carbon rotors https://www.jm-gmbh.de/en/rotary-valves/tuba/