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Warning: Long post ahead.

I've just returned from the tuba showcase event. It was a really great time. You could actually hear yourself, and I was able to pull out a tuner with most of these horns. Here are my thoughts on each model they had to try.

Disclaimer: You may agree or disagree with my thoughts on these horns based on what you like as a player. I prefer "no-thought" F tubas as opposed to "learning curve" F tubas. I'll describe what I mean later.

The list of horns Buffet had: (Yes, they will also be at Midwest)
B&S:
[
GR51 - Seems to be a Tuono lengthened to BBb. Exceptional response and sound very similar to the Tuono. Plug in a bowl shaped mouthpiece and it lights up. Wonderful instrument that would be better with a fifth valve.
[
GR41 (PT606) - I'm not sure why this horn still exists, particularly when the Ursus exists. They share the exact same bugle. The Ursus just has the stupid leadpipe but more well-thought-out valveset. This tuba brings one word to my mind: Forgettable. It's fine. Not worth the $10,850 they're asking. Not at all. Here it's pictured next to the Ursus.
795 - Forgot to take a picture. Generally nice sound. Construction felt pretty good. Response was pretty good. A nice value instrument worth checking out.
4197 (PT20) - Forgettable. Why would you buy this over a 6P for only $2K less? It was fine. Pitch was okay, low register was... Meh. Why is this still being made?
[
3098 (PT6) - Excellent. You don't need me to tell you the PT6 is a good instrument. Relatively well-priced brand new at about $12K. Still a great audition instrument. This particular one was also exceptional.
3198 (PT6P) - Same as above, just with pistons. This particular example is exceptional. Myself and my friends really liked this one.
[
MRP-C - Excellent. I owned one, and still like things about the MRP over the Tuono. The MRP makes a REALLY nice, wide sound. Great York tuba replacement. This one was very nice.
[
[
MRP-C(P) - The new guy. I wanted to like this one better than I did. The PT horns all have that york-ish slant to them, which is fine, they're large enough to justify it, but the leadpipe is a few inches too low for me, and the slides are a long reach. You can't really reach through the horn, so you've got to go over. These also have the same 5th slide extension option that the rotor horns do. Cool, I guess? I have no use. Anyway, I liked the basement on the 6's and rotor MRP better. I didn't shake hands with the MRPP (heh, heh) as they say.
3100 (Pt-16?)
3100W (Pt-16 in silver?)
[
JBL Classic - The only B&S rotor F I took a photo of. They're basically all the same. You can mess with bores and slide layouts, brass type, but they all played pretty much the same. This one was the prettiest. If you like standard rotor F, and want a well-made, professional quality horn, these are the ticket. Pitch is GREAT across the B&S F line, just not for me. You can copy and paste that assessment for all the B&S F's. I do wish, though, that the 5th and 6th paddles were large like on the MW rotor F. They felt really strange to me.
5100W (Another 6v F)
MRP-F - I must've missed the photo for this one. Honestly, I expected the low register to be better than it was. It felt slightly better than the rotor F's. It seems to be a rotor F body with a piston set on it. Nice, and very in-tune. Again, not my style of F tuba. I liked it more than any of the rotor horns though. Ergonomically, the leadpipe was low for me. Boo. Nice horn, though. I generally liked it for what it is.

Meinl Weston
[
2011FA HoJo - Pleasantly surprised! Small horn, small bore, but generated some nice sound! Low register popped. Pitch was pretty good. I have no use for it, but it's a nice tuba. Not worth $10K, imo. If I had to knock something, the finger buttons are TINY. 345-tiny. Really weird. Put some standard buttons on it, MW!
[
195 Fafner - Made the best sound in the room. Big, comfortable, great valves, and a sound to die for. It's a shame it doesn't have a fifth valve. I'd also love to play the piston version. Hands down, the best sound was made by this instrument.
[
3450 - Exceptional. If I needed a small CC, this would be it. Gets blatty when you really step on it, but it's small. To me, THIS should be the baby Baer, not the Ursus. It shares the EXACT same valveset as the Baer, which the Ursus does not. Probably why I like it so much.
[
3225 Ursus - Honestly, I really like how this tuba sounds and plays. Pitch is pretty good, low register is pretty good. I really want to like this tuba. The problem it faces is the nightmare of ergonomics. As you can see, it's got that York-style mouthpipe that is designed to play off to the side. This tuba isn't large or wide enough to do that. It seems to be designed to sit on a chair or a stand, as Mr. Baer does. For tall skinny guys like me, the mouthpipe height is fine, but it's off-balanced and awkward. Also, the fifth valve throw is about a mile long. Pretty in gold lacquer though.
[
5450 Thor, 5450RA Tuono - There's a reason I came back to these after our initial separation. I still miss that particular Thor sometimes. These, to me, play identically. Pick your valve type and you have a solid instrument either way. Both of these were exceptional. They have a quicker response and a roaring low range, but do have a more "aggressive" tone quality compared to the Pt-6's. Still, if you're really tall, the leadpipes are significantly higher on these two models than any other, except maybe the Baer or Ursus. If you're looking for something that's easy to play, and sounds great, these are both great options. Love.
[
6450 Baer - The best horn there. I *loved* it. Sound. Response. Ergonomics for a tall guy, all CHECK!! Love love love the Baer. This is what I would sell or trade my Tuono for. 100%, without a second thought. And this was the production version. I can't imagine what the handmade is like. If anyone wants to get rid of theirs, hit me up. For real.
[
4250 F - The best rotor F there. Has ease of playability that the B&S rotor F's were lacking, probably due to the fifth valve being on the bottom of the rotor stack and substantially larger than the B&S's -The edge they brought was the sound, but man, this one is comfortable, easy, and great. More people should check the MW rotor F's out. I'd play one. I don't even think it needed the second valve kicker.
[
2182W F - Not a fan. This seems to fill a void that nobody was asking for. (Small piston F) It sounded, well, small, the open bugle pitches seemed way far apart from each other, and the low range was lame. Probably my least favorite F there. Sorry.
[
2250 F - Exceptional. So, so easy to play. Low register roars out of that horn. Low G and Gb are awesome. The high register wasn't half bad. Very similar to my previous Willsons. It is more in-tune than both of those Willsons too. However, I don't feel it is ~$4K better than my rotor Willson. I don't *need* it. If you like an easy to play F, this is your horn.
Cimbasso - Didn't play it. Looked nice.
Yamaha
[
YBB-623 - This is a home run. Amazing response. Intonation is great. Ergonomically it is great. I really didn't expect to like this one. This would be my pick for anybody who is looking for a great all-around instrument. If the BBb is this good, I hope the CC is as good or better. It was really really nice!

Eastman had two 836's there as well. The silver one was really great. Honestly, stupidly easy to play, and so very light. Quality, fit and finish, that still has some catching up to do in order to be on the level of the German stuff. Really played well, though. I see why people like them.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:10 pm 4197 (PT20) - Forgettable. Why would you buy this over a 6P for only $2K less? It was fine. Pitch was okay, low register was... Meh. Why is this still being made?

Only a 2k difference between a PT-20 and 6 is straight up silly. Real shame because I use to LOVE these tubas for the sound, size and ergonomics (I’m 5’7”).

It’s just one of the old models they must’ve kept for acceptable intonation and sound. Same deal with the GR41.

But, when this is~$10K and a 6 or 6P will run you right around ~$12K, it’s a no brainer.

Who is going to be buying this thing? Not me when the new price on a 6 is so good.

It may be marketed towards youngsters? High school kids mostly? It’s good to have budget options, even high-priced budget options? I don’t know.

So much PT-20 hate

Sometimes, people just want (or need) a 4/4 tuba. The PT-6 is a big tuba, and you don't always need all that.

Does a $2k price gap say to you that the 20 is priced high? Or that the 6 is priced low? To me, I think the 6 is priced low, and the price of the 20 indicated a lot of overlap in parts and maybe development with the 6.

In fact, I'd expect that about 83% of the PT-20 is the same as the PT-6.

Piston MRP is interesting.

I wonder how similar it is to the PT-7 or piston Neptune (neither of which totally worked out, either).

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:00 pm So much PT-20 hate

Sometimes, people just want (or need) a 4/4 tuba. The PT-6 is a big tuba, and you don't always need all that.

Does a $2k price gap say to you that the 20 is priced high? Or that the 6 is priced low? To me, I think the 6 is priced low, and the price of the 20 indicated a lot of overlap in parts and maybe development with the 6.

In fact, I'd expect that about 83% of the PT-20 is the same as the PT-6.

I don’t hate it as much as it seems but it’s just sort of… meh. I think it’s priced high and the 6 is priced low. Interestingly the 5450’s are in the $14,000 range which is really strange. I think the 6’s are priced really well. Really well.

Comparatively, the 3450 is a better tuba to me than the 20. Slightly smaller but livelier and more responsive.

The piston MRP - likely is more in-tune than the 7 and the Neptune. And even though it is a bear to hold, the 7 is probably just as, if not more, heavy with that big bell on top.

.

So how many did you end up buying?

None. I intentionally left my checkbook at home.

I would’ve walked - no - RAN - with that 6450. I am highly considering putting my Tuono up for sale. The only thing that’s stopping me is the brand new price tag. It’s more than I can justify.

Runner up? That 2250. Really really liked it.

Sousaswag wrote: ↑Sun Dec 17, 2023 7:10 pm 4197 (PT20) - Forgettable. Why would you buy this over a 6P for only $2K less? It was fine. Pitch was okay, low register was... Meh. Why is this still being made?

Start Disclaimer
Remember this is all in jest , but also serious too ...
End Disclaimer




THIS GUY!!!!!!! Technically the rotory version... Plus most people like the lengthened to piston BBb version... I wonder how a rotory version would be like...

I'll try to defend the 4097 and it's rotor sibling mates honor!!!

--Feel free to quote for future key vs key vs key discussions---

BECAUSE IF I WANT A TUBA BIGGER THAN THE 4097 (Rotory) / 4197 (Piston) I WOULD GET A REAL ENSEMBLE INSTRUMENT WHICH IS A BBb (or longer) TUBA and not bother with CC tubas trying to sound like a BBb tuba...

...
Quote from the Mr. P tuba advertisement
"It is the newest B&S CC tuba and is considered a 5/4 + size with a sound more like the German BBb tubas..."

THEN WHY DON'T YOU JUST PLAY AN ACTUAL BBb TUBA instead of this NONSENSE of trying to make a CC tuba sound like one. You know, like the B&S GR51 and GR55, LET ALONE THE MIRAPHONE's like the 289, I mean really. People cutting down BBb's only just to start making CC tubas sound like them... Ridiculous... Well 5/4 and bigger CC's anyhow

And no, big Eefers do not count as CC tuba sounding

-

I'll admit the 4097 does feel or played a bit dry compared to other tubas. I'm sure B&S 795 and the MW Ursus are objectively better tubas. But no rotor versions, let alone top action , are being made. Plus, kinda like the rumors of the reason why Donatelli rejected the 6/4 York CC... With Ursus and it's method of holding the tuba, I can understand why.


As time goes on and the more curmudgeon I get, I wanted a
REAL B&S , one from Markneukirchen . Although in the grand scheme of things as we all can tell when anything made in today's age it doesn't really all that much to majority of people... Bummer

--------------------------------------------

I've never played a Rudy Meinl before, I guess I need to Vacation somewhere to try one.

No one has defined what a "modern" Alexander 163 CC is... 1990? 2000? 2010? 2023? How modern of a used Alexander do I need to try to truly compare. No one has been bringing a brand new one to the Army Conference in VA. Because if no one brings them how do you expect people to talk about them. I personally believe in word of mouth... But it needs to be advertised, word of mouth can only work when it's properly advertised.

I am really glad Horn Guys imports them... But I am not going allll the way to the west coast just to toot on it for a tiny bit (time and money). Plus they cost more too. Maybe I need to go to ITEC if sif one is actually there... Hmm...

The 4197 was chosen by me due to where it was made, familiarity with the VMI (B&S) 3301 BBb from my highschool days, and not liking most German style tubas... Except for the B&S GR51/55, and the Miraphone Hagen series (the 5/4 and even the 3/4)... Although they are not as "stove pipey" as "German in style as it gets" tubas.

But this post does convince me that I need to add a good bowl shaped mouthpiece, maybe the rt-82, to my arsenal. The Bach 22 and the wooden mouthpiece from Etsy don't count. The Denis Wick 2 isn't bowl shaped enough and is not as "Helleberg" as their advertising suggests... To see if I'll appreciate German style tubas more.



EDIT: the B&S pt1 also known as the 3103, is really nice too

To avoid confusion, I'm mostly reacting to the person who initiated the thread and posted the pictures. I have not yet read the post just before mine.

All of those F tubas (and all those tubas) are made by B&S... you might like the M-W labeled models better.
I like the one that you like, but it requires extra air compared to what I'm accustomed to presenting into an F tuba, for only a little bit more potential body of sound, and I'm not sure that I need or like an F tuba to offer more body of sound than that which I'm accustomed... but yes: as far as the newer types - that all require more energy to play, I also like that 4XXX one more than just about any of them.

Those JBLs are pretty rare but super sweet horns. I didn't know they were still making them. I picked mine (5 valve, fwiw) out of a lineup of eight or nine PT-10s, 11s, 15s, 16s and such on a miserably cold afternoon in Ferndale, Michigan about 15 years ago, after a six or seven hour car ride in the ice and snow. Was surprised I wasn't upsold into a (more expensive) six valve version, but it was clearly the best of the lot.

It's interesting how the B&S side of the company has kept mostly the same lineup of F tubas (variations on a theme by PT-10) while the MW side has shown a lot more willingness to push the envelope with different layouts, bugles, etc.

Those B&S F's are as traditional as they come. I think they're catering to people who want that type of F tuba.

Again, I like the big, easy to play F that I don't have to think about.

But, I will say, every B&S F is really in-tune. Scary in-tune, even. And, they're pretty reasonably priced. They're within $10,000-$11,500 depending on your options. (I have a price list here, but they're also listed on the website).

Meanwhile, M-W is showing us what a rotor F tuba really can be! I'd like to give the bigger one a try. I wish they'd bring more of them.

Anyway - I don't mean to poo-poo the Pt-20p, I just don't want people turning around and losing money when they (if they) try to sell it later. That's a lot of money up front for a tuba that won't ever be worth that much again. The horn is fine. There are others that I personally like better. I appreciate the family guy joke though

The bigger horns - they're what people want. They hold value. And they'll continue to do so.

I know, I know, most people aren't like me, and keep their horns around longer than a year. But my point remains; The up-front cost brand new, is too high for most of those 4/4 tubas. In my opinion. I'm just one guy who's really passionate about tubas.

just saying that M-W is made at B&S.

It's all B&S.

@Sousaswag

You are ultimately correct. As well as your assessments

I actually should try some F tubas to see what the hubbub is about and even CC's that I avoided due to BBb bias. End of January and early is going to sooo exciting!

I just needed to defend my as well as my steed, maid, name, vessel, vehicle, instrument, whip, flatulence generator, future property, sonorous beauty, fragile twisted heap of metal, anchor... Uhh other analogies can be inserted or included honor/choice.

I used to think as you do—the B&S F tubas were squirrelly and didn’t “just play”. My Yamaha 621 F tuba “just played.”

But I made a discovery. When I learned how to approach what became my first B&S Symphonie like its own thing instead of like a variation on my contrabass tubas, which really took very little effort, it became the norm for me. Getting that singing tone from the 621 was suddenly “more work.” The 621F is really just a mini contrabass with an easy high register and a compact tone. I often want exactly that and it’s certainly what I was looking for when I bought it.

When I want that singing F-tuba bass tone that is still
loud enough to carry a large ensemble, the B&S F defines something my other tubas don’t provide. In that context, the supposedly troublesome low C…isn’t troublesome. From that perspective, the later PT-ised B&S F tubas like the Pt-10, 15, and 20 went backwards by trying to provide more of the default contrabass experience instead of treating the F tuba concept like something different and unique.

(With my tremor problems, the relaxation the B&S demands in the low register eludes me and I don’t play it as much. But I miss it.)

One aspect of that discovery is that F-tuba-like contrabass tubas can be approached the same way on their own terms instead of like a large contrabass. When I play the 184 like I play the B&S, it sounds like an F tuba in the way it blends with tenor instruments. When I try to play it like my Hirsbrunner kaiser Bb, it becomes the oinkmeister, blatty and closed. It’s perfect for getting the F-tuba effect when for whatever reason I need a Bb in my hands. Not many Bb tubas can do that.

The B&S 101 Bb is also unique—it has a resonant intensity that is like an Alexander but not as dark. The tubas that have really spoken to me all have that intensity in the context of the tone they make, even the Holton. I really think that’s a traditional playing concept that isn’t as popular today. It’s not necessarily pretty but it does command respect. The B&S F tuba adds the pretty to that concept, but the sound still has that punch.

We must remember that old B&S started life as the workshop of Hess whose master instrument maker was Andreas Crönlein, whom Hess had hired away from Alexander before the war. There is a lot of shared DNA there.

How can any German artisanal tuba survive when Chinese copies of them are sold at prices well below German costs? I think we’ve seen the last of the great German and Schweizer-Deutsche tuba makers—Anton Meinl, Rudolf Meinl, Crönlein, Peter Hirsbrunner Sr., and so on. Their sons and professional descendants kept it going for another generation, but now they are retiring and nobody can pick up the mantle (except Miraphone, bless them, and a vestige of B&S). Of course prices are high. It’s what it costs to be directly connected to that tradition of makers who inherited that culture directly and lived in it, expecting to live like middle-class westerners like their customers. The Chinese tubas have gotten excellent, but it took western tuba players to get them there on the backs of cheap laborers who are not tuba players and don’t even know what tuba playing is about.

Despite the tone of the preceding, I wasn’t willing to pay primary market prices for my German and Swiss tubas, so I’m not in any position to be judgmental. But we are losing something that we may someday miss. That was true in the 50’s and 60’s, too, when the great American manufactures were also fading away, and it’s ironic that the most popular European and Chinese tubas are remakes of defunct American designs, including the instruments you liked most at this show.

Rick “rambling like Bloke today :) ” Denney

That is some great wisdom to be perfectly clear.

I’m just lazy and actually want my F tuba to be a little contrabass!

To each their own! The Pt-X F tubas win the intonation battle. That’s for sure.