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Folks - I have an issue that I don't really know quite how to address. The community band that I play in is a decent one, but far too often wrong notes in other sections get cemented early on in a concert cycle and make it into concerts. I am blessed/cursed with well above average ears and I can discern the wrong notes in any section, not just mine. I fix those in my section without issue, as my section mates respect each other's abilities but also know we are not infallible.

My question is how do you bring it to the attention of the band/band director or players without stepping on toes when the problem is not in your section and week after week it persists. The director in this case has a doctorate and is a fine conductor, but it seems that either he is not concerned with or does not feel he has the time to address chronic wrong notes.

My only goal is to make sure we are as good as we can be, and it would be so simple just fix the note and move on without any drama. Part of my problem too I guess is I have a background in jazz where we don't seem to have boundaries like this. And if I am playing something wrong I certainly welcome (and do solicit) that info from any other member of the band.

So many egos to bruise in community bands.

Excellent question!

The answer to me seems simple and obvious. Do NOT bring this up in band rehearsal. Instead, reach out to the conductor one on one. In person, by phone, e-mail, text, whatever you prefer. Simply tell him something like “I couldn’t help but notice some notes that don’t sound quite right in (fill in section).” (It’s clarinets, right? ). Don’t approach it from the standpoint of “Why didn’t you catch this?”. You don’t want to bruise his ego either. You could say that it was easier for you to hear these particular mistakes because of your location in the band. You can hear things going on that perhaps he can’t. My dad always taught me you catch more bees with honey than vinegar. Bend over backwards to be nice. But also be honest. Tell him you have the best interests of the band at heart, and you want the group to be its best. He will react positively to that, I can almost guarantee. He may even take you into his confidence, and ask you to report to him other things going right that you notice. Good luck.

I have found it useful to; when I hear the issue during rehearsal, bring it to the directors attention by asking if there is a misprint in the score/parts. Then they look for it and address the issue without calling anybody out..

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Thankfully, "we professionals" (please interpret as humorously pretentious) never play any wrong notes, never play out of tune, and always phrase beautifully.

Okay, I made light of this just a little bit, but I only did it because it's something that all of us hear - at least at some of the gigs where we end up playing.

You will handle this however you choose to handle it, but I'll tell you what the prescribed way is that paid musicians handle it: Unless they are the principal player in the section where the wrong note is occurring, paid musicians never say anything about any aspect of anyone's playing. They view that stuff as being up to principals and music directors. Even one principal speaking to another principal about a person in the other principal's section might be considered stepping over bounds, because - again - that's the job of that other principal and the music director.

This may also seem a bit foreign to some, but paid musicians also follow another custom whereby they strive to try to never ask a music director a question (certainly, never during a rehearsal). Even questions about a score -:particularly if it's a somewhat known piece - musicians are sort of expected (whether or not most or any of them actually do) to know how a piece "goes" and to not need to ask what's written on a score. Otherwise, context clues are sort of expected to be relied upon. Beyond this, if the music director doesn't find fault and doesn't criticize or change something, the general directive amongst paid musicians is "Don't ask". Whether or not this seems odd, that's how it is. Also, the principal trumpet player is viewed as the principal of the entire brass - and not just of the trumpets, so - if some substitute second trombonist shows up, doesn't understand this custom, and raises their hand, the principal trumpet might look over at them and very quietly say, "Put your hand down," - yes, and not even knowing what they were going to ask.

(There is a community band which graciously allows me to sit in reheasrsals from time to time, and I'll actually play a concert with them occasionally - if all of their tuba players are sick or unavailable - and I won't ask for remuneration, but I don't know enough about community band politics/ mores/customs to be able to differentiate between a paid situation and a volunteer situation. I can only comment on the typical customs within paid situations, and with that I apologize.)

Grumpikins wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 8:29 am I have found it useful to; when I hear the issue during rehearsal, bring it to the directors attention by asking if there is a misprint in the score/parts. Then they look for it and address the issue without calling anybody out..

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This particular instance is indeed a misprint on the first trumpet part. Measure 18 of Morton Gould's Jericho. It's a straight-up D major chord, and on the score and the recording the top trumpet is playing a concert F#. The part is written G natural (Concert F).

I looked at the part, said to the player, "You are indeed playing the note on the page, but I am certain it is not right". I asked the player to talk to the director about it thinking that a quick confab between the two of them would be the best way to resolve it. For some reason the player seems to think that it's not an issue, but damn - it sticks out like a sore thumb.

If this had been operator error instead of a typo, I would have kept my mouth shut hoping that the player (who is decent-ish, just not the best ears) would discover on his own.

*

Well, if the trumpet is going to play an F instead of an F#, then you should play a C# instead of a D.

But actually... I'm glad you spoke up about it (I would have, too), but sorry it didn't go anywhere. But at some point, it's no longer about being subtle or polite, and it just has to be correct.

So, if it were me, the next time the piece is rehearsed, I would raise my hand at some point and ask the director -- with the full group -- about the D major chord at measure 18. And that the first trumpet part has an F instead of an F# and it sounds wrong. There's nothing unprofessional about that at all. Conversely, it's amateurish to play exactly what's written on the page, even if it's an error.

When stuff like this happens, there are typically groans, eyerolls, side comments... then the director says "play and hold that chord" and then usually it gets fixed very quickly.

And if people give you grief about it, then go all Drumline on them...

bort2.0 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:27 pm
So, if it were me, the next time the piece is rehearsed, I would raise my hand at some point and ask the director -- with the full group -- about the D major chord at measure 18. And that the first trumpet part has an F instead of an F# and it sounds wrong. There's nothing unprofessional about that at all. Conversely, it's amateurish to play exactly what's written on the page, even if it's an error.

In the 3 bands I play(ed) in its always like this luckily, no weird looks or anything. But mostly the director or the player hears it. Especially the director of the brassband, he hears everything!

How dare you?

MY notes, like MY truth, must never be challenged.

You are all monsters!

other side of the coin:
If the music director, the player, or the principal don't sense a problem (paid or unpaid), what good is it going to do for me to point it out (other than embarrassing or annoying all three of them)?

One of the VERY FEW times that I pointed out a problem (over the DECADES) was during the first (of only two, per usual) rehearsals for a pops concert - maybe two or three years ago.

- The piece was handed to the music director THAT DAY (the arrangement had just been hurriedly typed out on someone's computer, as Carl Perkins, Jr. was going to make an appearance in the show, and play that piece - one of his dad's tunes - with us.)
- I honestly can't remember which tune - that "we" all know, but (obviously the m.d. - who grew up in the UK) did not know...Being a rockabilly/C.P. tune...(which, admittedly is slightly more obscure, and - consistently - this m.d. is normally VERY up-to-speed on "just how 'the record' sounds".)
- It just sounded too "dumb" (OK...just like you, it was beyond what I could tolerate...but it was a bit further...it was the entire FEEL of the thing.)
- I raised my hand (and - admittedly - the m.d. and I are buds, which is an usual sort of thing), and I (apologetically) suggested that the "feel/groove" wasn't right. Even though I didn't have the bass line at the beginning of the piece, I demo'ed the correct "feel" on the tuba...and - as soon as I did that - the entire orchestra vocalized) "Yeah...yeah...THAT'S IT !"...

...so I got away with it, and no one's feelings were hurt.
(I believe that I may have ALSO gotten away with it, because I'm OLD ENOUGH to have actually LIVED in Memphis when that Sun Records tune was playing on AM radio...yeah: Sometimes, "old people" are given a "by" - regarding their behavior - sometimes via knowledge, but - usually - via assumed senility.)

Three Valves wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:29 pm How dare you?

MY notes, like MY truth, must never be challenged.

You are all monsters!

I'm split between:

"My music, my choice"

or

"My F natural self-identifies as an F#."

or

"How dare you mis-frequency my F#"

Oh, 2024...

.

The definition of arrogance is surely different on the two sides of the pond. A friend of mine who played for quite a while in the UK reported that occasionally Americans would come around and do what they do here, which here is called selling yourself, somewhat necessary to get anywhere "this is my background that shows I am able to do what I came here for." Over there it was perceived as extreme off the wall arrogance, leaving the American quite confused about how they were perceived.

What I'm seeing - as your response to what I posted - is a demonstration of cultural bigotry.

It's not cultural.
Rather, that sort of way of handling things varies from one person to the next. I could say it is different in the American north and the south, but it's basically that >> some individuals in the world << are blunt, and some individuals in the world mince their words. Actually there's another type - who never says anything.

There's a blonde-haired American young man on TikTok or Instagram or something that lived in Germany for a few years and makes some very funny videos (speaking English with a German accent) about Germans. I understand that he's doing stereotypes, and not all Germans are like that, but maybe all Germans are a little bit like that and all Americans are a little bit like something else (??), but not so much.

I promise you, though: if some sub raises their hand when it's 5 minutes from the end of the rehearsal - and the music director (routinely/robotically asking " ' any questions?") is getting ready to let everybody go, the principal is going to whisper to them sharply to put their hand down, because that sub is just about ready to waste 5 minutes of time of 60 people, which is 300 minutes of time out of people's lives... so who is it - really - who's being rude?

LibraryMark wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 5:56 am Folks - I have an issue that I don't really know quite how to address. The community band that I play in is a decent one, but far too often wrong notes in other sections get cemented early on in a concert cycle and make it into concerts. I am blessed/cursed with well above average ears and I can discern the wrong notes in any section, not just mine. I fix those in my section without issue, as my section mates respect each other's abilities but also know we are not infallible.

My question is how do you bring it to the attention of the band/band director or players without stepping on toes when the problem is not in your section and week after week it persists. The director in this case has a doctorate and is a fine conductor, but it seems that either he is not concerned with or does not feel he has the time to address chronic wrong notes.

My only goal is to make sure we are as good as we can be, and it would be so simple just fix the note and move on without any drama. Part of my problem too I guess is I have a background in jazz where we don't seem to have boundaries like this. And if I am playing something wrong I certainly welcome (and do solicit) that info from any other member of the band.

So many egos to bruise in community bands.

The root issue lies with the Conductor. Doctorates mean naff all, its ability to do the job that matters.

There’s a balance to be struck in every Band. If something annoys me then I’d have a private word with the Conductor (face to face is almost always better) and a bit of humour when tackling others works for me too. The best way is never to talk about individuals but rather sections, folk tend to want to do things right and good section mates listen to and help each other.

Of course that’s just my experience here in the UK and YMMV.

.

Yea, "we" Dutch can be a bit more direct ;)

I am from the south, Limburg, generally we are not so direct as for instance people from the North and South Holland provinces.