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Since 1980, a tremendous number of new models have poured out of Europe.
I can't possibly remember all of them (and - likely - might not even know about all of them), and voting on all of them - individually - up or down is just too political...and would get people - here - fightin' worse that two southerners in a Piggly-Wiggly - both with their hands on the last 89¢/lb. turkey the day before Thanksgiving...

...so (in your mind) what PERCENTAGE of all the new models of all lengths/sizes of European tubas (German/Swiss/Italian/Czech) - developed/released to the market since 1980 - have been STINKERS, and what percentage have been WINNERS?

If you think there have been winners, I would encourage listing (in a post/reply) which SINGLE model - in your opinion - has been the BIGGEST winner, but how about this:
If you currently OWN the model which you view as the biggest winner, avoid mentioning that one. (again: could get to be political)

...no Asian models, please. (Japan and Taiwan are considered to be in Asia.)

Single model.. Norwegian Star

Other candidates.... Tuono, Thor, Bruckner, most of the Hagen family, and the Bel Canto

In 1980 there weren't many options for a piston valve CC tubas out there. That tells you how many models have been released since then

LeMark wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 7:46 pm In 1980 there weren't many options for a piston valve CC tubas out there. That tells you how many models have been released since then

That's about when the 188 appeared, as well as the Hirsbrunner 510 (and - soon thereafter - the same valveset pasted on their 4/4 rotary Bb cut-to-C body).

' tons of B-flats/E-flats/F's as well...
(It's difficult to stop thinking about C tubas, isn't it? )

I didn't mention BBb because there were a bunch of piston BBb's. As far as I know, here's the Piston CC timeline

1978... Conn 3J is discontinued
1990. Kalison DS model is introduced

In between, the only piston CC models I am aware of were offered by Hirsbrunner, but the 80's started with me in elementary school and ended with me in college. There's probably something I wasn't aware of.

Were Willi Kurath and Walter Nirschl making piston CC tubas in the 80s?

When did the Gronitz piston CCs come out?

To answer the question re: biggest winner: 188

The first time I saw a Kurath of any kind was the F tuba in the early 90's. Don't know about the others

During that eary era, Walter Nirschl was making valve sections for the first front action piston tubas made in Europe whereby the valve sections resembled the CSO York style valve section.

Given the number of jobs won on them, I think the rotor PT6 might be the objective "biggest winner"

At the risk of being tubapolitical, can we get a list of known stinkers going?

I will start with an obsolete and unpopular model that shouldn't be too controversial:

Meinl-Weston 2155R

edit: and not talking about one-off dawgs, either, like Joe's old 188.

There are of course tubas that folks don't LIKE, but there are definitely some that have fallen out of favor because of unworkable intonation.

I am thinking of a couple others, but they would really ruffle some feathers and were designed before 1980 anyway.

Most of the stinkers are "anything that Blake is offering for sale".

bloke wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:20 am Most of the stinkers are "anything that Blake is offering for sale".

Blake or bloke?

edit: it is REALLY easy for me/us to sit in my/our chair here and make a big list of tubas that I/we think stink, but that isn't very productive discussion, so please ignore me.

Back when the rotary 2155 was introduced, I had been playing a Holton 345CC - and had been routinely stumbling across the quarter-tone 3rd partial G/F-sharp issue, so the same thing on that rotary 2155 didn't seem "worse" to me (and the 5450-like sound/response - intonation aside - of the rotary 2155 was alluring), but - since back then and to date - a whole bunch of models have been introduced with stinky (is "comically bad" less offensive rhetoric?) intonation. Of course, today there is a whole new (disallowed from this thread) herd - some of which offer pretty good tuning, but also some of which aren't mechanically reliable.
The rotary 2155 - aside from the 3rd partial G/F-sharp usable pitches MIA - was a tremendous powerhouse - actually (I'm remembering) even more so than the subsequent/redesigned/(suspiciously-similar to the rotary 2155) 5450 piston and rotary models (as the bore on that old rotary 2155 was something like 20.5mm, was it not?)...but - besides those two distracting pitches - the rotary 2155 (at least compared to the piston 5450 - the version with which I'm far more familiar, compared to rotary) didn't particularly lend itself to bel canto / cantabile playing...but - back then - so many of us (as remains a large contingency of "fist" players today, yes?) were into "power", were we not?...oohing and ahhing at 6/4 tubas with mouthpipe tubes which jumped out of mouthpiece receivers already nearly sporting something close to the bore sizes of the valve blocks themselves (etc.)

Winner: 2155 (piston)

Not much related to the 2155R in anything except name, great 4.5/4 size/Miraphone 188-ish tuba.

Yes, the 2155R was very satisfying to play. I spent an afternoon on one in someone's shop who was selling it on consignment. It does remind me of a Thor in that regard. Great low end. I remember 1+5 Eb being something that had to happen, though, and besides the other issues, it was just kind of ridiculous to use that as a "has-to-happen" alternate.

Last thing about stinkers: I find a tuba to be more of a stinker if it offers more sharp-natured pitches than flat-natured pitches.

Unfortunately, that survey suggests that tubas are either stinkers or winners.
I´d argue a VERY high percentage were neither, but good enough to raise eyebrows and cause the hype-of-the-season for maybe a year or so, until the next hyped model came about.

I´ll throw in HAGEN and MW 197/2 on BBb and Adams F as winners.
Yeah, I´m not supposed to name horns I own, but to be fair: The Adams became a dream of mine when I first encountered it on ITEC in Linz, Austria, and I fulfilled that dream just 1.5 years ago. So to me, it was a winner long time before I owned one.
And maybe the Hirsbrunners they were derived from were just as great, but I haven´t played THOSE yet.

...the original point/objective being that I would fairly strongly disagree with two of those over which you just specifically drooled...but will not mention those two here.

...ONLY being curious as the TFFJ's opinion of how OFTEN European manufacturers - during most of the TFFJ's lifetimes, and since the explosion of the creation of new models - have hit vs. missed.

LeMark wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:49 pm The first time I saw a Kurath of any kind was the F tuba in the early 90's. Don't know about the others

Back in, maybe, 1973 or 1974, I went to Custom Music to look at euphoniums. They had a four-in-line front action compensator (like the Marzan) with “Willi Kurath and Son” on the bell. They also had a raw brass 3+1 compensator with “Willson” on the bell. Fred Marrich told me the Willson was a prototype and that Willson was going to be the new name for Kurath horns. I don’t know any more about how the timeline for the transition played out.

The patent on the Blaikely automatic compensating system was expiring (invented in 1874).

MikeS wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 10:37 am

LeMark wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:49 pm The first time I saw a Kurath of any kind was the F tuba in the early 90's. Don't know about the others

Back in, maybe, 1973 or 1974, I went to Custom Music to look at euphoniums. They had a four-in-line front action compensator (like the Marzan) with “Willi Kurath and Son” on the bell. They also had a raw brass 3+1 compensator with “Willson” on the bell. Fred Marrich told me the Willson was a prototype and that Willson was going to be the new name for Kurath horns. I don’t know any more about how the timeline for the transition played out.

You got me there, I was referring to Kurath labeled tubas. The first time I played the big F tuba I was blown away how tuba like it sounded but still had an amazing response. It's the same tuba that Wade has for sale now. If I was an F tuba guy I would be all over that

<SIDEBAR>

I remember playing (c. 1998 - and I have NO idea how old it was at that time) a Kurath-made F tuba which ALSO sported "PERANTUCCI" on the bell engraving.

A student at Interlochen was considering buying it from someone. It was pretty wonky. I encouraged them to wait and try other makes. They probably bought it, as they were really exuberant.

I believe they used it to perform "Petrouska" that same evening.

bloke "The four-pitch whole-tone scale - from A-flat up to D - sounded reasonably well in tune, at that performance."