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I bought this to practice some repair on. It has been identified by a well-respected German tuba expert as a Miraphone, but as being a bit larger than the 186 and it has no Miraphone markings on the bell. The keel is stamped "Made in Germany." Nickel silver outer slides. It has three rotary valves with clockspring action and S-linkages. There is no kranz and the bell rim is pretty well goofed.

My goals are to get the mouthpipe rounded out and resoldered and to reattach the carriage bar thing that holds the paddles in place. Slide alignment is good, and lining up the rotors manually and playing the open series... yep, it definitely sounds like a Miraphone.

I guess I could mess with the bell a bit, but it is structurally stable and not doing any harm now. I did roll some of the more egregious folds out.

It's interesting how the really old ones feature really low-slung mouthpipes.

' y'all thing those low-slung mouthpipes "fit" people better when strapped on to shoulders with a rope and marched with (as most instruments built then were REGULARLY taken out and marched with)...

...OR (??) do you think it was because most people "back then" (Germany, as well as USA) were a bit shorter?

I also believe that I noticed that mouthpipes - shaped just like the one on your instrument - were "brought back" when Miraphone felt as though they needed to offer "recording basses" for the "American market"...as that particular shape attached to the lower portion of the bell (conveniently missing the detachable portion).

If it was 1950s, woudn't it have said "Made in W. Germany" or "Made in GDR" instead of just "Germany"?

I'm wondering if it's pre-war... because I believe it would have just said "Germany" at that time.

Neat tuba, the kind of thing I always hope to stumble upon. Where'd you find it? Willing to share (here or PM) what it cost? Just looks... well... "neat". Have fun!

(In the land of the tuba-less, the 3-valve tuba is king. )

Well, 1950s was an estimate. The definitive answer is at least pre-1965. I don't know if Miraphone was making these tubas pre WW2 but certainly a possibility. It is very plain with no fancy engraving so I assume for the school market. No idea how it ended up in the USA.

I bought it for a few hundred bucks plus gas money to a friend. Not chump change, but it seemed within my wheelhouse to get working properly while also offering some challenges, and I have few doubts I can recoup costs if it is time to sell it.

Before even straightening the rim (into a geometric plane) - if places in the rim are "rolled up" (as are some on that bell), I use a fairly substantial (nearly 2"...??) rawhide mallet, set the rim on the floor, and swing the mallet so as to barely miss the bell flare, catch the rim from the inside, and "unroll" those places. These are NOT "soft taps".
(tip: park your elbow against your side/ribs to add addition striking accuracy, as accuracy avoids additional flare dents.)

so:
1/ rim damage
2/ put the rim back into a geometric plane (probably the same hammer, and a critical eye...accompanied by some hand-bending is also just fine...smaller bends in the rim: (such as two or three inch ones) support the ends of that area with fingers from the other hand, and whack the center of that imperfection...Believe it or not, just those fingers will keep your hammered corrections within the area defined by those fingers.
3/ bell creases and dents

wrong order = going "back and forth" and re-creasing already-repaired creases
(For whatever reasons...(??), I seem to prefer 'faster/better', being well past the "this stuff is fun" stage.)

selling?
Were it not for the clocksprings, I might recommend offering it to a middle school, though:
- not shiny
- not four valves (as - is known - all Essential Elements 𝐈 scholars need four valves)

Here's something to consider:

Miraphone as a company did not exist until 1946. Miraphone was a establishment of a variety of workshops in Europe and especially Czechoslovakia which were disrupted or destroyed in the war. Here's a detailed history from Miraphone's website:

https://www.miraphone.de/company/histor ... ition.html

As said earlier. anything stamped "Germany" would have been made before the war or post 1989. It could indeed have the "Miraphone sound" if it was constructed by a workshop which eventually became a part of Miraphone. It looks kinda neat and if it can be played in tune, it would be kind of a nice addition to one's tuba arsenal.

The Big Ben wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:31 pm Here's something to consider:

Miraphone as a company did not exist until 1946. Miraphone was a establishment of a variety of workshops in Europe and especially Czechoslovakia which were disrupted or destroyed in the war. Here's a detailed history from Miraphone's website:

https://www.miraphone.de/company/histor ... ition.html

As said earlier. anything stamped "Germany" would have been made before the war or post 1989. It could indeed have the "Miraphone sound" if it was constructed by a workshop which eventually became a part of Miraphone. It looks kinda neat and if it can be played in tune, it would be kind of a nice addition to one's tuba arsenal.

Thanks for the history. The rotors, rotor bodies and ferrules were identified as pre-1965 Miraphone to me, including the specific way the rotors are constructed, so I am really not sure about the "Germany" engraving; it is odd indeed. I will perhaps reach out to Miraphone and see if they have any info.

Was the Western Germany thing a requirement of imports to us and to other countries? If they made stuff and sold it domestically, did they have to put Western on there? Would they have put Deutschland instead of Germany? These are actually questions, and not rhetorical questions.

[

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 6:34 pm Was the Western Germany thing a requirement of imports to us and to other countries? If they made stuff and sold it domestically, did they have to put Western on there? Would they have put Deutschland instead of Germany? These are actually questions, and not rhetorical questions.

Same with "made in" instead of "gemacht in" or similar

I asked this a a long(?) time ago, the belief was that the "made in Germany" was an export thing. Not just for the US either, just in general that it it was going outside of Germany, it had to say it.

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:48 am It's interesting how the really old ones feature really low-slung mouthpipes.

' y'all thing those low-slung mouthpipes "fit" people better when strapped on to shoulders with a rope and marched with (as most instruments built then were REGULARLY taken out and marched with)...

...OR (??) do you think it was because most people "back then" (Germany, as well as USA) were a bit shorter?
...

Bb 186's really need to rest on the chair (or a separate stand)--I've never been able to put one on my lap without the mouthpiece hitting me at eye level. A lower mouthpipe would allow it to be placed on the lap, like a C 186.

Rick "neither short nor high-waisted" Denney

@Rick Denney
The 186 that I've been basically building out of parts (talked about in the repair forum) - I mounted the mouthpipe following the solder line from an old funky 186 bell (which I mounted temporarily). The valve section's original mouthpipe was just like the one in the picture, but it was way too low (for me). ...Suit-coat-wise, I've always worn "long" versions of coats, but not extra long or anything like that.
I could say that the one I put on there (very little dip) is - arguably - too high for me to rest on my legs, THOUGH - if I sit up nice and straight - it's sort of "just fine", and I think I probably breathe better than when I'm slouching. I could set it on the chair seat and sort of slouch a little bit (and the Miraphone 98 gets set on a special chair that I made for it with a hard pad built in - whereby both my rear end and the bottom of the tuba sit on the same surface), and the 98 (regarding the height of the mouthpipe) is sort of the "mama bear" tuba, because it fits "just right".

I think with the model 98 Miraphone tuba, I've (recently) become accustomed to sitting up taller/straighter and playing. Even with the B&S F tuba in my lap, the mouthpipe on that one now feels too low, and I'm feeling compelled to do something about it. That bothers me, because I hate tubas whereby the mouthpipes have been monkeyed with.

Here it is with the temporary bell, and notice that - besides the solder line that I traced with the mouthpipe that you see which are partially made, there was also a lower solder line that looks like it would have lined up with that lower style mouthpipe that we are seeing in Blake's picture.

The Big Ben wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 1:31 pm Here's something to consider:

Miraphone as a company did not exist until 1946. Miraphone was a establishment of a variety of workshops in Europe and especially Czechoslovakia which were disrupted or destroyed in the war. Here's a detailed history from Miraphone's website:

https://www.miraphone.de/company/histor ... ition.html

As said earlier. anything stamped "Germany" would have been made before the war or post 1989. It could indeed have the "Miraphone sound" if it was constructed by a workshop which eventually became a part of Miraphone. It looks kinda neat and if it can be played in tune, it would be kind of a nice addition to one's tuba arsenal.

Not quite that long ago. Made in Germany was possible from about 1950 until 1989, but there was no legal requirement in West Germany to say "Made in West Germany." When companies did so, they were trying to distinguish themselves from cheap products made in GDR. "Made in Germany" didn't do that.

The country of origin requirements came from the USA and the UK. Items not made for either of those markets weren't required to be marked at all, and there was certainly no requirement prohibiting "Made in Germany" even at the height of the Cold War. A German court found in the early 70's that there was no legal basis to prevent companies in the GDR from saying "Made in Germany," thought most still said "Made in GDR".

So, you'll find plenty of post-war products marked "Made in Germany" no matter if they were made in East or West Germany.

Before the two Germanies became separate countries in 1949, they were one country occupied by four victorious powers after WWII. The Soviet sector was what became East Germany, while the American, British, and French sectors became West Germany. Companies making things in future West Germany often used the label "Made in Western Germany" to comply with country-of-origin laws in the English-speaking world.

This tuba cannot be dated by the fact that it is engraved "Made in Germany", but it probably means it dates from prior to the 50's when it became more common practice for companies to want to distinguish themselves from cheap and poorly made GDR products.

Miraphone was and remains a cooperative made up of traditional workshops that were displaced from Saxony and Czechoslovakia during the war and the early parts of the Soviet occupation. I expect not all of them yet felt it was commercially advantageous to label away their Saxony roots--that emerged later.

Rick "but 'Made in West Germany' definitely dates it to the period 1950-1989" Denney

bloke wrote: ↑Tue Jan 30, 2024 10:16 pm @Rick Denney
The 186 that I've been basically building out of parts (talked about in the repair forum) - I mounted the mouthpipe following the solder line from an old funky 186 bell (which I mounted temporarily). The valve section's original mouthpipe was just like the one in the picture, but it was way too low (for me). ...Suit-coat-wise, I've always worn "long" versions of coats, but not extra long or anything like that.
I could say that the one I put on there (very little dip) is - arguably - too high for me to rest on my legs, THOUGH - if I sit up nice and straight - it's sort of "just fine", and I think I probably breathe better than when I'm slouching. I could set it on the chair seat and sort of slouch a little bit (and the Miraphone 98 gets set on a special chair that I made for it with a hard pad built in - whereby both my rear end and the bottom of the tuba sit on the same surface), and the 98 (regarding the height of the mouthpipe) is sort of the "mama bear" tuba, because it fits "just right".

I think with the model 98 Miraphone tuba, I've (recently) become accustomed to sitting up taller/straighter and playing. Even with the B&S F tuba in my lap, the mouthpipe on that one now feels too low, and I'm feeling compelled to do something about it. That bothers me, because I hate tubas whereby the mouthpipes have been monkeyed with.

The future is fuzzy and possibilities are swirling, but I'm seeing...some clarity emerging...a tuba rest in your future.

Rick "has a K&M that might be for sale soon" Denney

I cannot tolerate tuba rests. They are of the devil. My bench is perfect. Congratulations on your second troll of the day.

It's already after 10:30, and it's after 11:30 where you are, so it's just too late for a counter-troll.

You've done pretty well today. I conceded a draw on the first one, and - since I'm resigning on this one - I believe that qualifies as a win for you.

well-played, and well-timed

Anyway, I have emailed Miraphone and sent some pics. Will report what they say about this instrument.

arpthark wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:31 am Anyway, I have emailed Miraphone and sent some pics. Will report what they say about this instrument.

It's you again.



(One of these days - when the last of the Miraphone people who have been around there for a long time are gone, they're not going to be able to answer as many of our questions.)

Word from God (well, Miraphone): They don't think it's actually a Miraphone, but it's hard to tell from pics.

Shrug. Whatever it is, it looks like one, has the rounded diamond flanges, and has an identical bore size to a 186.

Working on making it presentable (or at least playable) this weekend, stay tuned.

Not sure how many of the people who work there were born yet when that instrument was built.

Some of us know that Miraphone made copies of both the bach 16 trombone and the Conn 72h bass trombone, but no one at Miraphone new it until I told them about it and showed them the advertising and a real version of one of the two in pictures. I suspect they still don't believe it. After all, they are German.

Three valves and a low-mounted leadpipe? I bet this was a student model. These features would accommodate younger players.