for those pursuing performance degrees

[bloke]

- Management is paying orchestra musicians less and less, and this is from full-time 52 week orchestras down to per service orchestras.
- The reason they are doing this is because >> they can.
- They see music conservatories continuing to have wait lists, and parents and enrollees going into debt way out of balance to their likely incomes - likely incomes which are much closer to zero than a living wage.
- As young professional classical musicians flood the market, management sees no reason to pay any more than they have to, particularly when they see so many people who emotionally feel as though they absolutely have to play music.
- so with our dollars now worth half what they were only four years ago, the actual numbers of dollars that musicians are paid is going down. In case this isn't clear, musicians are now paid - de facto - something LESS THAN half what they were paid four years ago.
- Another factor to consider - though people feel uncomfortable hearing someone bring this up - is that it has become very popular to hire it any sort of person that qualifies as any sort of minority, so - if you're looking at yourself in the mirror, and don't see a minority - you're probably not going to be hired to play music - and neither per service nor full-time.
- Besides what I've already pointed out above, management is of the same mentality as wealthy people who invite a lower class misfit to their parties, expecting that lower class misfit to entertain them on their piano or bring along their guitar or some such. As much as you might be doted over and encouraged as a student, the minute you become a working player, you become the help, and I'm talking about "help" like a dishwasher in a restaurant. Yes, really.
- Something to realize is the only people with extra money (the prosperous and the wealthy ) pay $50 to $150 to go watch a symphony orchestra play music, and - of the prosperous and wealthy - only a small percentage of those are interested in watching orchestras play classical music. Just like everyone else - when they suddenly see their own savings and incomes threatened - they're going to cut off things that they don't need, and they certainly do not need to go watch a symphony orchestra play music.
- If this hasn't disheartened you enough, some of you are remarkably talented and very VERY quick studies, but realize that some others of you have quite a ways to go before you can even outplay an old fat man on Social Security, and yes, I've heard some of you.

Go ahead and practice and improve with the same intensity, determination and vigor, but - instead of - as side occupations - smoking weed and going to keggers, consider learning to be a plumber, electrician, a welder, a machinist, or an HVAC craftsman while you're also sharpening your instrumental music skills. If you think you can take up the slack teaching, you need to know that there are dozens and dozens and dozens of tuba people across the country hired as "adjuncts" at universities, who are paid a pittance, and possibly only if they agree to enroll in the university and work towards yet another "degree".

[Cameron Gates]

Can this post be framed and made a startup page to this forum? You know, with a box to check that you accept and understand?

[bloke]

LOL

[Mary Ann]

This goes with my "rule of scholarships" in that the less likely you are to be able to make a living at what you are studying in college, the more likely you will get a scholarship to study it.

Even with a 4.0 average in engineering school, AND being a "minority" -- my sum total of scholarships was one $100 scholarship my senior year. In music school, I had full tuition + scholarships.

Oh yeah, I forgot, I did have a full tuition scholarship my first year in engineering school -- to play violin in their orchestra.

Learn a trade. Be independent and work for yourself.

[bloke]

Other than "the politics of university studio teaching", this is NOT (ref: "conservative/liberal") political.

The last person you would ever see me vote for (politically) would be a (so-called) "progressive" politician, and (in SEVERAL of the previous elections (due to my stance/views) I did not vote for either of the (so-called) "main-stream" presidential candidates.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID...
One of my regular gig-bosses (I'm pretty sure) votes for "progressive" politicians, and - when we talk confidentially about matters such as the main topic of this thread), his responses have been something along the lines of

f--k no, bloke. I'm bringing up my sons to learn valuable trades, and to work for themselves.

[Cameron Gates]

As a college freshman I changed majors from a hard science to music education. The tuba teacher at the school would not allow me enter a performance degree program. He was a terrific teacher and a smart man. He knew that one performance degree leads to another, and another, and you are most likely left with lost years and a warehouse job.

I eventually had a full-time career in a good military band surrounded by some wonderful players. Many of the most accomplished players in that group had music education degrees AND a year or four in the classroom under their belt.

When my old professor explained his stance he emphasized the importance of earning and being employed in a viable field. He viewed public school teaching as a viable field, but at the same time encouraged me to entertain the idea of a business degree. Any person in any degree program can learn to be a tuba player as well as those buried in a performance degree path. If a student thinks that a performance degree gives them a head start on a mythical “playing job” OVER the player who is a CPA is both poor and very dense in the head.

This idea was driven home to me in the summer of 1986 while playing in the “Statue of Liberty All-American Marching Band” in New York over the Independence Day week. There were about 50 tuba players from across the country in that band. Most were music majors with many of them being performance degree pursuers. The best tuba player there was a computer science student from the University of Illinois. That guy killed the sousaphone. I could not get enough of listening and marveling at his phenomenal skill. He wanted no part of a music degree. If I could land a full time playing job he certainly could have. Now he is probably a very well compensated IT guy and a terror for the local community band director to deal with I bet.

Another example is a person on this forum that goes by the “King Rob” handle. He was also at that NY event. He is a tuba player. Always has been. He has a very legit job as a computer nerd. He has always had this job, yet like I said, he is a tuba player. He buys, sells, talks, dreams, plays, and thinks about the tuba. His friends are tuba players. If you are ever lucky enough to meet him you will not mistake him for anything other than a tuba player. He didn’t need no stinking performance degree to get to his station in life: being a real tuba player and a huge dork.

[bloke]

A native of Lenoir, North Carolina, Joseph Robinson majored in English and economics at Davidson College, where he was elected to Phi Beta Kappa and earned a Fulbright Award for study of federal governmental support to the arts in Germany. It was during this post-graduate year in Europe that he met Marcel Tabuteau and became that great teacher’s first student in the ten years following Mr. Tabuteau’s retirement from the Philadelphia Orchestra.

(principal oboe, NYPO 1979 - 2005)

[bisontuba]

Mark Almond, principal horn


Dr. Mark Almond joins the Chicago Symphony Orchestra previously served as associate principal horn of the San Francisco Symphony, co-principal horn of the San Francisco Opera Orchestra and third horn of the Philharmonia Orchestra, London.

A native of Bolton, England, Almond began his musical education at the age 9 while playing tenor horn in brass bands. He studied medicine at Cambridge and Oxford universities, and at 19 made his professional debut with the London Symphony Orchestra. He holds a doctorate in virology from Imperial College, London, and worked as a respiratory physician in teaching hospitals before becoming a full-time horn player.

He has appeared as a guest principal with the Los Angeles Philharmonic, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra and Royal Philharmonic orchestras, among others. An active chamber musician, he has performed at the Music@Menlo, Cleveland ChamberFest and Santa Fe Chamber music festivals.

He teaches horn at the San Francisco Conservatory of Music, Roosevelt University’s Chicago College of Performing Arts and is a visiting professor at the Royal Academy of Music, London. 


[matt g]

Just some basic statistics:

MIT graduates about 800 or so computer science or related field students per year. They average $120,000 per year for income out of school.

The BSO hires about 2 or 3 people per year. Average salary there for musicians is about $150,000 per year now, I think.

Chances of getting into MIT are likely much better, from a general population perspective, than the BSO.

That’s just looking at “elite” situations. The chances for higher pay for non-musicians in general with less actual work is way better.

[bloke]

MIT graduates about 800 or so computer science or related field students per year. They average $120,000 per year for income out of school.

I'm straying off topic (as we always do, yes?), but I can't help but wonder
- what percentage of those are US citizens
- what percentage of them end up staying in the US

[MikeMason]

I resigned from my adjunct teaching job in December. One of my student’s scholarships was more for the semester than my pay for the semester. Time to go! I enjoyed parts of it, but moving on.

[Sousaswag]

Today’s college kids don’t understand how bad things have gotten economically. Or, they do, and just think that drive, work ethic, perseverance, etc, will be enough to land that once in a lifetime job only playing the tuba.

The performance degree is a big fat scam that’s a cash grab from universities. Nobody in their right mind should ever get a performance degree these days.

More professors need to be honest with their students about their life path. My last year of school, I discussed the possibility of going to graduate school because I (naively) only wanted to play.

My teacher, and I will never forget this conversation, said something along the lines of “Are you thinking graduate school because you can’t do anything else, or, are you prolonging adulthood a few extra years? This was the BEST lesson I ever had. And it was one of the last. And I didn’t play one bit.

That was the kick I needed to be honest with myself, where I was at, and understand that I’m a good player, but I don’t have the drive, finances, or personality to play my future in a game of chance trying to get that once in a lifetime tuba job that I’d never get.

I’m not that far removed from college; but that education degree I have is everything. If I didn’t have it, I’d still be working a dead-end job and have a tough future choice. I’m proud to be a teacher.

There are so many jobs one can take that also have enough free time to play your tuba. The trades should be pushed more in public school. College and college debt isn’t for everyone.

[The Big Ben]

Is there something called a "performance minor"?

A student could major in engineering or bidness and get advanced training on a musical instrument. Maybe would take a little longer (One or two quarters depending on how the student structures the workload) but would get two desirable things at once.

[tofu]

.

[russiantuba]

I am glad that there are some professors doing things "right". I did my DMA in performance at a flagship school in the midwest. In fact, I was the 4th person to complete the degree since the inception in the 1970s (5 total have completed the degree in performance, one other tubist completed a DMA in composition and is a great performer, a couple others ABD). My professor stated he only wanted 1 graduate student at a time, but would consider a second if one is in their final year or one was tuba, one was euphonium, etc. I remember him saying there isn't that many jobs, and program acceptance should be competitive.

On the undergraduate level, it was super rare for someone to be just a performance major, though some music education majors would add on a performance degree (the couple performance only we had in the large studio were advancing in major military auditions, etc). With a school of over 60,000 students, there were talented non majors, or students who started as music majors, went to pursue other degrees and kept their playing to make the top group. As Cameron mentioned, the amount of talented non majors is high, and I personally like programs that allow people from outside the school/department to compete, as it can give a true reality check to majors.

I had colleagues who attended other schools who were in DMA tuba quartets, meaning 4 DMA students enrolled at the one school simultaneously, competing against current students and graduates from 40 other programs for the few positions a year. I can't name many programs that have courses or strategies for effective freelancing skills.

[matt g]

MIT graduates about 800 or so computer science or related field students per year. They average $120,000 per year for income out of school.

I'm straying off topic (as we always do, yes?), but I can't help but wonder
- what percentage of those are US citizens
- what percentage of them end up staying in the US

Probably better than half are citizens as students. I’d be willing to guess a few extra stick around after school.

[JRaymo]

The people who fly the large international sized airplanes are now making $500 per flight hour. Takes about $100000 to get a commercial pilots license. Two years and about $40000 will get you an aircraft maintenance technician license. The major airlines are paying them well over $100k and there is or was a big shortage industry wide. Definitely not a 9 to 5 job though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jperry1466]

I got my masters degree in performance (50 years ago) with no intention of being a professional performer. I had a music education degree and wanted to become the best player I could be so I could be the best teacher I could be. I taught public school band for 33 years and loved it. I am currently mentoring a young college tuba player and talked him into having a double major: music education, so he can do what he wants to do; and music business, so he can actually make a living. I loved teaching, but it's not for everybody, and it is very different these days.

[Mary Ann]

One of the euphonium players in my quartet has a masters in low brass performance. Didn't find a way to make a living with that (didn't do the military band thing,) then he got a music education degree, taught band for a few years, then went back and got a PhD in some kind of biochemistry-immunology, found that he didn't make any more as a post-doc than he had been as a band director, went back to school AGAIN and became a pharmacist, which he has been for 25+ years now but is past typical retirement age. Still happy being a pharmacist (at a hospital; that's where he uses that degree) and playing the euph on a recreational level, and very, very happy that he eventually got himself to where he could make a living on the level he wanted to.
Ha, I keep telling people just go get your BSEE. Best decision I EVER made. Music degree didn't get me squat.

[bort2.0]

The people who fly the large international sized airplanes are now making $500 per flight hour. Takes about $100000 to get a commercial pilots license. Two years and about $40000 will get you an aircraft maintenance technician license. The major airlines are paying them well over $100k and there is or was a big shortage industry wide. Definitely not a 9 to 5 job though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My dad was a mechanic for the USAF in the late 60s/early 70s. He loved that job, and I always wondered why he didn't either 1) stay "in" longer or 2) didn't get a similar civvy job when he came back. He said it was because of the long/irregular hours, any/all weather, and could be brutal work. Instead, he worked his whole career for the utility company... Outside... Any/all weather... Weird hours...