Breath Training / Lung Training / Training...Training...

[jonwatso]

All,

I understand that it's not possible to increase vital capacity, but that we can train our lungs in other ways. I know that some of it is simply playing, but what do y'all recommend for other exercises? I row once a week for 1000m and will be increasing that over the summer as I have time. I've looked at things like this - https://tuba.music.unt.edu/sites/defaul ... grev20.pdf - as well.

Thoughts?

--Jonathan

[bloke]

If you can relax enough to genuinely yawn, yawning is when your body takes over and the lungs take in just about as much air as they can.

This article's title vs. content seem contradictory, but I found it with a search engine, so here it is...
It may be great...I may not be...I only barely skimmed it.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... -breathing

[shovelingtom]

I picked up an PowerBreathe (the red manual one, not the fancy computerized ones) about 6 months ago after reading about the benefits of high-resistance inspiratory muscle strength training for reducing blood pressure (see: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8652071/ among many others).

It’s pretty anecdotal but I have noticed that I’m more efficient with my air in playing, as well as in climbing mountains, running, and using an SCBA than I was before. Can’t say for certain it’s the reason as I’ve been jogging when it’s not snowy and rowing when it is way more consistently than before, but it certainly hasn’t hurt. Blood pressure also is ‘normal’ and not ‘if you’re still elevated like this at your next physical we’ll have to put you on meds and sideline you until it evens out.’

[bloke]

I believe that working on the embouchure and making the vibration of the lips work really well to produce a beautiful sound is one of the most effective ways to use less air when playing.

(OLD Tubenet joke)
You are being offered this observation from someone who has a World-Class Sound.

[Tubeast]

Being on the heavier side of life myself, here´s what I experienced.
Others have commented to that effect already, and what You state hints you´re aware of that as well.

Anything that might facilitate diaphragm action should be embraced.
Abdominal tissue and organs need to move in order to let the diaphragm do its work.
All that movement and deformation of tissue takes up energy, which is why it´s possible to hammer a cold steel rod to make it glow and light a cigarette on it.

- It helps to not be full (if at all, I´ll have light meals before playing)
- It helps to not be obese
- Regardless of BMI, it helps to be flexible (which sumo wrestlers tend to be and I, for example, being far less voluminous, am not)

I´m taking up rowing, too, and believe in medium activity several times a week rather than one (i.e. occasional) session of exercise.
Other than that, I try to incorporate some principles Mr. Jacobs hinted at:
- not to over-analyse breathing
- not to over-engage abdominal pressure (this I find rather challenging).

[Mary Ann]

About that, I was watching that very old show were the doc does autopsies. I actually find it interesting, but whatever. There was one recently where the guy had weighed 400 pounds, and she said the fat was pushing the organs up into his chest cavity such that he would have trouble breathing. I'm sure there is a point at which that starts to occur but would have no idea where that point is. Tuba-ing and fatness seem to so often go together, and tuba requires so much air -- an interesting take on air supply problems.

[Tubeast]

Follow-up on that rowing-thing:
The water rower I ordered arrived last week.
(wooden frame, plastic vessel with water and a rotating paddle wheel in it, your rowing energy will be dissipated by the water´s flow resistance).

First impressions: Great machine, and immediate positive effects:
After the second 1hr session, I´m already having less trouble tying my shoe laces.
That´s not me losing weight so fast, but immediately getting more comfortable with that curled-up position to reach for those feet.

It takes a session or two to become comfortable with body positions and the coordination of movements, but then you´ll be fine.

Comparing exhaling on the backward motion (on a real skiff boat: oar in the water propelling the boat) vs. exhaling on the forward motion (oar in the air, preparing for the next stroke, thighs folding and pushing stuff towards the diaphragm) You DEFINITELY experience how much impact girth, body position and your organs´ freedom to move have on your breathing, as I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread.

You´ll definitely want to spend MORE time/rowing distance per session on that thing than the OP suggested:
The equivalent of 1000m of travel will take you about 10 minutes at the most, and that´s WAAYY too little exercise per week to have noticeable effect.

This training seems a lot more effective and joint-friendly than running for a bigger guy like me.
I´m 6´4" and weigh 300 pounds, so I´m NOT QUITE resting my belly on my thighs when I´m seated, YET.
Were I some 30 pounds heavier, the rowing position might need a lot more time getting used to.

[MiBrassFS]

Ron Bishop (past Cleveland Orchestra tubist) used to talk about just using a “big, relaxed breath.” Simple, yet effective way for training players to get the feeling needed for an effective breath. Much like what Joe referred to with yawning, it allows you to bring in what you can in a natural manner without engaging counterproductive musculature and eliminating the mental ping pong that people can get tangled in. I try to remember this concept Ron shared with me.

[GC]

There's "The Breathing Gym" by Sam Pilafian and Patrick Sheridan. Some swear by it, some swear at it.

[bloke]

Ron Bishop (past Cleveland Orchestra tubist) used to talk about just using a “big, relaxed breath.”

I've always thought of this as big non-relaxed breaths...and - by using the negative - I'm not criticizing their coaching nor the method.

There's "The Breathing Gym" by Sam Pilafian and Patrick Sheridan. Some swear by it, some swear at it.

[bloke]

more:
I don't know much about breathing gym, but I know enough about it that at least part of the focus is to train oneself and to develop oneself to be able to take in very deep breaths very fast and to be able to stretch out the amount of time it takes to release them, in order for tuba players to be able to stretch out their phrases longer, and I'd have to assume it would be a good thing for flute players too. I can't see anything wrong with working on that.

[MiBrassFS]

He (and others, as I don’t think this was a unique concept to him, I just heard it mostly from him) would try to get students to yawn to illustrate the feeling of more full inflation to those struggling. To have effective release, the player has to get enough in first. A then B.

So, knowing the goal and learning ways to get there is key. Depending on where the student is in the process - crawl, walk, run - will dictate where they need to begin work.

I have done Breathing Gym and think there’s good stuff there. If you really do it, it’s, indeed, a work out!

(I just ran across my copy a couple of days ago. I now have no excuse to not get going with it again.)

[UncleBeer]

Not 'training' per se, but a concept I try to use daily: when playing, try to stay in the fullest 70% of your lung capacity, as that's the range where the elastic nature of your lungs wants to help you empty the lungs. Below that range (and below the "tidal range", where we shallowly breathe while relaxed), we have to exert effort in order to exhale; fine to occasionally finish a long phrase, but not an easy area in which to make music. My two shekels.

[bloke]

I watched a video with Arnold Jacobs talking about someone who was one of the people in the room who apparently had a fairly large lung capacity and never used it to their advantage. I think a light bulb went off in my head, and I've been working on breathing more deeply. I think I'm a person who got by without breathing deeply for decades, because of the capacity. I'm changing my habits. Things don't sound any better but things are easier.

[JC2]

Jogging is one of the best things you can do for your breathing. There's nothing you can do to increase your lung capacity but exercising regularly will help keep the tissues flexible.

Try going for a jog in the morning, have a rest for at least an hour afterwards and then play your tuba. I promise you your breathing will feel very easy and your sound will be bigger. Do this for a couple of months and you'll notice even more difference.

Go run! You'll live longer, sound better and be happier

[bloke]

Jogging is one of the best things you can do for your breathing. There's nothing you can do to increase your lung capacity but exercising regularly will help keep the tissues flexible.

Try going for a jog in the morning, have a rest for at least an hour afterwards and then play your tuba. I promise you your breathing will feel very easy and your sound will be bigger. Do this for a couple of months and you'll notice even more difference.

Go run! You'll live longer, sound better and be happier

I lost a good bit of weight a few years ago, and I believe that for quite some time I had four very large hernias which were being sort of hidden and supported by the abdominal fat. Those were repaired a few years ago and I feel great, but in the meantime (pre repair surgery for a year or more) I started eating the types of foods again which are frankly easier to pass (ie. carby foods), and that caused me to gain some of the weight back. I'm getting it back off, but I don't think that at my age I'm going to be doing much jogging, but I have a very steep hill on the road into this place that's several hundred feet long, and I don't think it would hurt me a bit to walk up and down that thing perhaps six times in order to climb it six times in a walking pace (up the hill portion of the road into here six times would be at least a mile). I don't think walking down that hill is going to do much too cause me to breathe deeply. LOL
...Otherwise, just walking casually around this property every day is a good bit of walking, but probably doesn't get me breathing like walking up that hill wood accomplish.

[Mary Ann]

Sam Pilafian was faculty at a horn workshop I went to a long time ago.
It was a small group of maybe 20-25 horn players, and I took my 182 Meinl Weston F with me as well as my horn. Of course the group got the breathing gym instruction. I think I "got it" at that point in time -- with my small lung capacity, I need ALL of it a lot of the time (Unc Beer's comment to stay in the 70% capacity area cracked me up) -- and I learned to open my throat and use my gut to suck in the air very quickly. I think that is probably the only reason that I can get as much out of a tuba as I can, which still not what someone larger can get out, especially below the staff. But it has been noted that my gut looks like a bellows working when I play, and while it may not be "kosher" when I need to fill up between notes, I have a really efficient nose sniff that is often used between EVERY note if the music warrants it. I know that nose inhales are no-nos for brass players -- but you know what? If it works, it works.

[bloke]

There's nothing that's against the rules, but - though there aren't any rules - there are things that work most the time that people teach. I'm always the one that's telling people to find things that work and follow the sound, and you're always the one who's telling people to find a teacher. We're not contradicting each other, and you just talked about doing something that you suspect teachers would not teach, and that's just fine.

[JESimmons]

Mike Gminski and Nancy Hogshead were Olympic athletes with asthma. They wrote a book about how they functioned, and one exercise was to walk briskly breathing in for four steps and breathing out through pursed lips for four steps. As that's not how we breathe as horn players, I modified the exercise to breath in for two steps and out for six. I hear my old high school marching band drumbeat in my head so I'm walking at 120bpm. Doing this helps build my chest muscles and increase my lung capacity.

[Mary Ann]

There's nothing that's against the rules, but - though there aren't any rules - there are things that work most the time that people teach. I'm always the one that's telling people to find things that work and follow the sound, and you're always the one who's telling people to find a teacher. We're not contradicting each other, and you just talked about doing something that you suspect teachers would not teach, and that's just fine.

While it's not "the topic" of this post -- there are those who have absolutely no idea what to do and that's why they are here seeking help. Those are the ones who should consult others in person to at least be able to see what those people are doing, and if smart, ask questions. I didn't get straightened out on horn until my dystonia lesson with Jan Kagarice. She was a teacher who told me what to do that was right, without any particular specifics, and also what I was doing wrong, with specifics. Without her lesson, I'd be off playing double reeds, at which I apparently am a natural --- except I wouldn't be if I had not had, at the very beginning, the finest teacher I've ever had for any instrument, who simply told me what to do in almost one lesson.