How to Approach Mouthpieces

[tubason]

Hey tuba and euphonium fanatics,

I've been considering buying a new mouthpiece recently when I stumbled across the question: "How do I even choose a mouthpiece?" Acknowledging that several factors (mouthpiece, instrument, face shape, etc.), I'm left sitting here befuddled. I'm sure I'm not the only one in the low brass community perplexed by this too. (Or, maybe I am ).
Could someone help me with this?

[BuddyRogersMusic]

I get this nearly everyday with players looking for new mouthpieces. I always start with the same two questions; 1.what do you like about your current setup?, 2. what do you dislike/what do you seek to change? Without knowing where one's starting point is, lots of time and money will be wasted with a slim possibility of finding the correct mouthpiece. Some basic things to consider when answering those three questions are rim diameter and contour, depth and shape of cup, and feel of material or finish on the chops. We can never forget that the sound should be one of the greatest attributes but if we're in pain or generally uncomfortable while making a great sound, we're not enjoying the music making.

I suggest making notes of one's perceptions when testing equipment. Write down everything that seems important and review them after a session. If additional sessions are required, consult the notes to see of the initial thoughts were confirmed. That may cut down on wasted time. Take your instrument to a showroom or conference that has a wide selection of mouthpieces. If you have a friend or colleague with a trusted set of ears, take them, too. What we perceive under the bell may not be what is getting into the hall.

I hope this helps and please let us know details about your journey.

[bloke]

Some people said some stuff in this adjacent thread.

Ignore stuff that I said...My posts are too long and self-indulgent.


http://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=93 ... 4f71183267

[tubanh84]

The last time I looked for a new mouthpiece, it was literally just "to see." I had played American-style CC tubas for years (decades) and had a good set of mouthpieces for those horns. I had just gotten a Miraphone 184. It sounded fine with my existing mouthpieces, but I hadn't played any other mouthpieces in so long that I didn't know what, if anything, I was missing.

I had a trip into Newark, so I built in a day to go to Dillon. Emailed Matt in advance letting him know the above information and what I'd be looking for. He had about 8 mouthpieces waiting for me when I got there as well as a 185 for me to test them on. I didn't even ask for details of the mouthpiece, because frankly I didn't care. That's not the first step for me. I had also brought my existing mouthpiece for warmups and control.

So I warmed up on my existing mouthpiece.

Then I took each of the 8 potential mouthpieces and played forte long tones C down to F. Each mouthpiece went into a "hell no" "eh" or "hell yes" box.

Then I did staccato pianissimo scales and arpeggios with each. They were regrouped, but largely stayed where they were. By that point, anything in "hell no" was out for good.

Finally I did Bordogni and Tyrell etudes on the "eh" and "hell yes" group. It was reduced to "hell yes" and a winner was chosen.

Played that for a while, played the runner up for a while. Left with my new mouthpiece.

My criteria, in order:

1. Articulation
2. Intonation
3. Tone
4. Flexibility

That's very personal, just based on what I mind working on/struggling with and what I don't. Articulation, to me, is something a mouthpiece can either do or can't, and there's a limit to how much work I can do to fix a mouthpiece with bad articulation. Also in my experience, some mouthpieces produce worse intonation than others, and while I can learn to lip it, a mouthpiece that inherently produces better intonation is (surprise!) easier, and I'd like to avoid the extra work. Tone, I can figure out. If the mouthpiece articulates well, and easily centers pitches, I'll make a good sound. I'm not a great player by any means, but sound has never been my issue. Similarly, I can work out the flexibility on a new mouthpiece, and given that this was for a CC tuba, the demands in group settings for crazy flexibility are limited.

Having said that, the mouthpiece I got excelled at everything, so I didn't have to compromise.

[Mary Ann]

Some marvelously thoughtful commentary here.
Walter Lawson had a huge line of cups and rims; horn mouthpieces being the size they are, he carried them all around in a box about the size of a briefcase. When I was at Kendall Betts Horn camp way back when, Walter was there with his box. I didn't get the opportunity to try when there (the line was long) but I did end up with a Lawson cup that I have used forevermore. Thompson rim though which was an accidental fit and perfect for me.

Wouldn't it be great if a similar thing were available without having to travel to a large tuba shop? It would be far less $$ to pay shipping on a selection chosen by someone like Matt W, for people to try out, all to be sent back but the chosen.

[Tubajug]

Thank you all for the great responses! I've been wondering about this same thing, as I've recently gotten a few more mouthpieces in my collection. This is great info on how to go about narrowing them down.

[bone-a-phone]

Again, my commentary is only from the trombone perspective, and based on my minimal tuba experience, I'm not sure if there's any relevance, except maybe to euphonium.

I went through a revelation about trombone mouthpieces about 10 years ago. I used to just think that I needed something bigger than a 5g because I wanted to look like a strong player, and strong players all use huge mouthpieces. Of course that was wrong, and very adolescent approach.

I had started on a Remington, and I played that for maybe 10 years. My first serious teacher got me onto a Schilke 51(d?), and then in college I got bit by the bigger-is-better bug, so I played 4g, 3g and 52e2. And my sound got progressively duller, even though my chops were super strong.

Career, time off the horn, then I came back to it on a 5g. Cracking a lot of notes. Doug Elliot said "a bigger rim will help you crack fewer notes, a smaller cup will help you sound better".

So I tried it, and it was a miracle. I got a rim that fit my face, which turned out to be about 2.5g size. For a large tenor. That's almost small bass territory. But then I put a smaller 6.5al cup on that, along with a shank that fit the horn. So in DE speak, I had an XT104F8 for my 88h. Comfortable, sounds great, fewer cracked notes, range comes back, playing better.

Part of the issue for me was that I could change from a 5G to a bigger mouthpiece easily, but I couldn't change to a smaller mouthpiece. I think this gave Doug a clue about where I belonged.

The difference I see between tuba and trombone embouchure is that for trombone, you limit the size of the aperture with your chops - the embouchure ring. But on tuba, you let it take up as much space as it takes within the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece rim on tuba seems to serve the same purpose as the embouchure ring on trombone. I could easily be really wrong about that, but that means that a trombone mouthpiece is almost always bigger at the rim than it needs to be - the rim just makes the face comfortable. But the cup makes the sound, and the shank fits the horn.

Tuba - to be honest I have no idea how a tuba embouchure works or if a "tuba embouchure" even exists, and I never found a secret to choosing a good tuba mouthpiece because I quit tuba since I never found a mouthpiece that worked for me on that instrument. Apparently it works different than a trombone embouchure/mouthpiece, as trombone thinking got me absolutely nowhere with tuba. The tuba embouchure just spreads freely. As long as you're not getting a nasal sound on tuba, it seems the mouthpiece dimensions control the sound to a bigger extent.

Still, on tuba, I'd start with the inside rim diameter and rim shape that works for your face, then get the cup size/shape for the sound you and your horn want to create, then get a shank that fits. On tuba, I think the shank has a bigger role in controlling the resistance than on trombone, so this might be more important for y'all.

I had a 3/4 size BBb, and I was trying to use the smallest tuba mouthpieces I could find - Bach 18 or 25, and even a DW 4 I think it was, and a Marcinkiewicz 105. I even had a Shallowberger that almost worked for me. Doug Elliot almost got me going on a P cup contrabass trombone mouthpiece, but that never come to fruition. Tuba playing helped my bass bone chops, but was completely destroying my tenor chops. I was getting tuba gigs, but I wasn't getting any better at playing it. So I decided to leave it to the pros.

When I selected a euphonium mouthpiece, I went through the standards - tenor bone mouthpieces, bass bone mouthpieces, 2G, 3G, 52e2, DW SM4, SM4U. The SM4s came close to working for me, but again I went to DE to break it down. So I used the same rim I use for tenor bone - 104. But I used a much deeper cup than tenor, and shallower than bass - a J cup. And a special euph shank - 9. So Euph104J9. And it gave me good flexibility with a decent high and low range. Good endurance and comfort. And a brighter more "sparkly" sound than the others. Plus, it didn't screw up my tenor chops aside from the funky resistance of the euphonium.

Not all mouthpieces come in 3 separate components you can size that way, but that's how I think of things.

[Sousaswag]

I might add:

Having the ability to try a bunch of stuff for your particular tuba is essential. Sometimes, a certain cup style just isn’t a match for you and/or your horn.

When I go about this, I first research what people like with a particular tuba. Then, I compare that to what I like and currently have.

The great thing about Joe’s line (and Houser pieces in general) is that you can mix and match to find what really fits things best. I’m a fan of Joe’s #2 rim and Houser’s 33P. I’m just used to the PT style of rim, anyway.

I then think about what that tuba needs. In the case of a 6/4, clarity and low register response is what I’d like for my particular instrument, so I chose a setup that I thought would work well. It did.

I hope that helped some.

[donn]

What I get out of the trombone vs. tuba story above, is

• the tuba mouthpiece sits far enough out on the face profile, that the rim is an issue mostly only at its inside edge. I have sort of wondered why anyone bothers to collect data on rim width, like for mouthpiece charts etc., and maybe it's because we just do that for mouthpieces and the tuba mouthpiece gets that column on the chart too. Or maybe some people really do care about the outside edge of the rim.
• Doug Elliott knows what he's talking about.

[BramJ]

Sorry, i have to do it...

Slowly, from the back, dont startle them

[bone-a-phone]

What I get out of the trombone vs. tuba story above, is

• the tuba mouthpiece sits far enough out on the face profile, that the rim is an issue mostly only at its inside edge. I have sort of wondered why anyone bothers to collect data on rim width, like for mouthpiece charts etc., and maybe it's because we just do that for mouthpieces and the tuba mouthpiece gets that column on the chart too. Or maybe some people really do care about the outside edge of the rim.
• Doug Elliott knows what he's talking about.

The rim is important for a couple of reasons (assuming these translate from tbone to other things). First, a really wide rim can hold your chops stationary when they need to move. A really narrow rim can cut into your lip and limit endurance. Also, for me, a really wide tuba rim hits the bottom of my nose and limits where I can place the mouthpiece. A really curved rim surface (or one that's higher at the inside or outside) can act like a narrow rim, focusing pressure at the high point. A flat rim distributes the pressure around a larger area, which prevents damage or pain. Doug's rims to me are very comfortable. They are flattish, but slightly curved. I tend to buy his narrow rims for tenor bone.

Doug studied with Donald Reinhardt (embouchure guru from the 70s), and has spent the past ~40 years perfecting his knowledge of embouchure and mouthpiece design. For me, he looked at my chops, saw me play, and recommended something that was within 1 size of what I play today. I can pick up any of my tenor or bass bones and play without needing an adjustment time for the mouthpiece, which took a week before I started using his stuff. He's the real deal.

[bloke]

Doug may know what he's talking about, and - based on the previous post and the donn post, it sounds to me as though bone-a-phone knows more what he's talking about (re: tuba mouthpieces) than does donn.

Typically, the narrowest tuba mouthpiece rims are about the same width as fairly wide trombone rims, and most other tuba rims - in my view - are too wide.
By too wide, I don't mean that they are too wide to be able to produce a sound or play music, but I mean that they are too wide for a large percentage of players to meet their potential, and that wider than necessary rims on tuba mouthpieces act as encumbrances.

Doug and I bartered, whereby I ended up with one of his contrabass trombone mouthpieces. I don't use it for contrabass trombone, but - when using it for that for which I use it - it's quite excellent. I know quite a few people who use his trombone mouthpieces. I've tried a few of his tuba mouthpieces that belonged to some other tuba players and they sort of seemed like modular versions of other things that don't work very well for me, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they work well for others. They are remarkably well made.

[donn]

That looks to me like a different way to look at the same thing.

There are two sizes of tuba rims -- narrow, and too wide? That's saying that the "flat" of rim, past the inside corner, isn't really serving the chop-supporting purpose to the extent it apparently does for the trombone, where some players want X amount of flat and others Y.

I looked at the Werden chart, and it turns out the column actually isn't filled in, for most mouthpieces.

[bone-a-phone]

There are two sizes of tuba rims -- narrow, and too wide?

No, well, yeah, I mean those two sizes exist, but your job as a pilgrim is to find the thing in between those extremes that works for you. If your flexibility is bad, it could be that your rim is too wide. If your endurance is bad, it could be that your rim is too narrow.

That's saying that the "flat" of rim, past the inside corner, isn't really serving the chop-supporting purpose to the extent it apparently does for the trombone, where some players want X amount of flat and others Y.

I wouldn't extrapolate too much from what I say. Go get a lesson from Doug. If you buy a mouthpiece from him you essentially get a lesson or at least a chop analysis for free.

My playing, for whatever reason, seems to be immune from rim width. I like narrow rims, but I can also play on wide rims. However, I'm kind of sensitive to rim inner diameter. Some people are much more sensitive to rim width. On tuba, I got a better sound from bigger mouthpieces, but my flexibility and accuracy were bad. It might have had to do with my trombone player ears, or my trombone player chops. I play euphonium well enough, but I can't play tuba accurately. pitch-wise (mostly I wind up on the wrong partial).

Mouthpieces have many different factors, some of which oppose one another, some of which don't. I wish someone more knowledgeable would come up with something like the "spider" graph that would identify several measures or aspects of brass mouthpieces, and chart them out. I think this would help people identify which mouthpiece to pick, or what to work on in their playing.

[bloke]

- resonance qualities
- flexibility
- comfort/fit
- resistance quantity

There may be more, but I'm not sure that give a crap about any others...(??)

For some players playing a 24AW, I would rate these four factors (based on evidence of having heard/seen them play) 10/10/10/10.
With the same mouthpiece, I would rate (with me playing it) 5/2/1/1...
I could OVERCOME those low ratings (and would be damn happy to find one, if at an engagement and having forgotten my mouthpiece), but would certainly choose to not struggle with that particular mouthpiece (with any size/model of tuba).

...so the fifth important factor is the player, with the sixth being the instrument to which a mouthpiece is mated.

[Three Valves]

Sorry, i have to do it...

Slowly, from the back, dont startle them

I always keep a wood bat handy.

Just in case....

[bloke]

Sorry, i have to do it...

Slowly, from the back, dont startle them

We may well have the next Nietzsche, here...