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- Your immediate supervisor is completely self-absorbed and views you as no more than a micro-manageable organ stop.
- You real bosses (in the office) view themselves as the actual organization, their assistants as the real employees, and you as nothing more than the peripheral "help". Their definition of their non-profit "supporting the arts" has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with supporting ARTISTS.

If you interview (aka audition) for a job and are hired (regardless of how many others applied), avoid the "big head", because no one over you views you as big, and every one of them views you as completely replaceable. In fact, the older (and less handsome on the stage) you become, to more they are going to wish (rather than you garnering their respect, over time) you would quit or do something in order to easily be fired...

...so (no matter how much one of these jobs pays and how hard you had to work to be hired to do it) ALWAYS consider a job such as this as a "side" job, and involve yourself in some other sort of work whereby you are basically self-employed. Real estate sales (if a person doesn't seem to have much acumen in the 3D world) has been a common (main/dependable) income for musicians - EVEN WHEN those musicians receive (what would be considered to be) a "full-time" employment from a musical organization. Yes, lesson-teaching is a common side job, but (even if wall-to-wall $100/hr. income) it won't compete - economically - with other quite a few other types of jobs (even becoming an expert at day trading...??), and those clients (particularly as they are mostly all 11-year-old to 30-year-old children) are always quitting without notice.

Sooner - rather than later - all of these will be per-service, "pops" will be the overwhelming majority of concerts (as they already are with many orchestras), and rare "classical" shows will be billed as novelties. (This has as much to do with the degradation of societal sophistication as it does with anything else...ie. "Brahms, Dvorak, etc., are just too 'sleepy'.") Everyone will be classified as a W-9 subcontractor.

Executive Directors (particularly those good a bringing in dough) salaries will continue to grow and "talent" (aka "the help") will continue to receive cuts. Rising budgets - in the view of boards of directors - have absolutely nothing to do with how much they pay "the help", which/who are considered to be an annoying expense.

questions executive directors and their boards discuss in private:
- How much can we cut their pay?
- Oh yeah, when we cut their pay, where the hell else would they go?

When they walk out on stage prior to concerts and mention "supporting the arts", they are referring to "entertaining the masses", and nothing at all to do with "supporting the artISTs".

To their credit, they see symphony orchestras for what they actually are:
Classical music (and bare minimum $50K/concert paid out to "the help"...assuming a freeway philharmonic) "cover bands".

One could argue this is cause for:

1. Stronger, more effective union
2. Diversification of orchestra funding, including increased government spending specifically for classical music programs
3. Prioritization of music education in our schools and strengthening the pipeline from student/parent to concertgoer

Which is to say, I don’t think the doom and gloom you have described is an inevitable outcome, if we are willing to make changes.

To me, that sounds like all the same typical gobbledegoop that has never worked. Unions are a little more than employees who hire tough guys (in the case of musicians unions, only tough talking guys with little if nothing to back up their talk) to pound their fists on the negotiation table. If they pound their fists on the table enough, the employers will shrug their shoulders and shut down whatever type of operation it is. If it's manufacturing, they'll move it to another state or overseas. If it's a service industry or entertainment, they'll just shrug their shoulders and walk away. The truth of the matter is that there isn't any demand. Up until maybe three decades ago there were enough wealthy people who actually liked hearing classical music (and enjoyed showing off ~their~ orchestra to their out-of-town wealthy visiting friends and business associates) to sort of keep it going. Now, the people who keep it going are wealthy people who really don't like classical music, but think that it's something that they ought to do (without really understanding why they should do it. Frankly, I really don't understand why they should keep supporting it, as they genuinely don't like it.)

Live music (any/all) has never been supported by people with no money, and always has been supported by wealthy people. So-called progressives in America point at heavy government support of orchestras in Europe, but what really goes on over there is that the really wealthy people both have their rear ends taxed off and they also still continue to like classical music and support it of their own free will - as it's a cultural tradition in Europe whereas it is a borrowed tradition (mostly performing European music) in America. Unionized musicians tend to stick their tongues out and make raspberries at wealthy people who are raising money to pay them, including pulling money out of their own pockets. (This type of behavior continues to puzzle me.) To go back over what I just said in the previous paragraph, today most wealthy people aren't really interested in classical music very much at all, and - unlike 20 or 30 years ago - the raspberries sort of encourage them to walk away from it or at least see how inexpensively they can get by funding it. The combination of the actual heavy lifting patrons lack of interest in the product and the product producers blowing raspberries at the patrons... well that just doesn't come to a very good end.


I'm not going to involve myself in another silly sociopolitical back-and-forth (reality vs. fantasy) with you, but when civilization and culture decline, the top of culture is what crumbles away first. I sort of liked it better when there was civilization and a bit of high culture, but those things have not been emphasized. Most of us realize why. Others of us (particularly those who are too young to even have witnessed those days) will continue to be clueless. As far as a place in time is concerned, I see us as somewhere around 470 A.D., if an analogy to Rome is to be made.

You’re always welcome to not respond with your sociopolitical opinion on the issues, no one’s forcing you to. I offered my opinion on possible solutions to address the problem that you brought up. While I agree that taking individual responsibility for your career and having a well-rounded skill set and revenue stream is smart and should be encouraged, it’s not a solution to the root problem you mentioned, which you seem to have identified as “not enough rich people like classical music” and “employers exploit their workforce.”

That said, to play devil’s advocate with myself, if one facet of the problem is “everyone’s replaceable”, then discouraging participation in full-time musicianship would be one way to reduce the supply of qualified musicians to replace you with, making the hired musician more valuable to the institution. Not sure sure if you meant that, but it has some merit.

I think part of what you pointed out (without out and out saying it) that children are overwhelmingly exposed to the banal, and former children - who are now wealthy adults - really don't appreciate (much less like) "classical" music. The fact though is that popular music has become more and more banal and more and more accessible. 70 years ago, people viewed Elvis Presley's presentation of three chord blues music as banal (and to be perfectly truthful and frank, it is) whereas today it's considered to be a collection of classics... so people are paid to show up with their half million dollar cellos (with their half million dollar conservatory educations) and play chord tones under Elvis tunes to Elvis videos on giant screens. That's where we are today with our symphony orchestras.

High culture and high art have never really had any appeal to anyone other than the most wealthy, and it used to be deemed to be important to parents of wealthy children to develop an appreciation of high culture and high art. That has been abandoned. I don't see stopping off at public elementary schools and playing an hour of watered-down classical music - once every two years or so - as accomplishing much, and - at the risk of being redundant - it has never been that type of person who has supported high art music.

As a glimmer of hope, I will admit that when clever people are exposed to clever music, their eyes light up and their eyebrows do raise, but that still doesn't mean that they are going to revisit it on their own.

You guys make me happy to not be good enough to be a pro. As a Classical guitarist I was used to playing all by myself. When I started playing with the other musical toys, I just continued to play them as if I was a soloist. Now that I get to play with others, we are just happy to play. I can and have walked away from the drama.

Still playing my unattended solo shows at home.
CCC

You may have caught a few posts of mine where I mentioned that I played cocktail parties on solo nylon string guitar as a teenager. It's just way ass harder than the tuba, and having a solo repertoire that ready to go requires basically going through the entire repertoire every damn night. And that's even if only sort of halfway playing through some of the tunes in what I would call a finger check.

At first, I discovered that playing bass guitar paid more than playing nylon string guitar solos, and then a year or two later I discovered that playing the tuba paid way more than playing bass guitar, and if I played the tuba in clubs, it tended to be in clubs where actual grownups congregated, rather than crowds such as seen in The Blues Brothers Movie with the chicken wire.

@bloke If at any point, you would like to offer a solution or a new direction for orchestras to take, I’d love to hear it. You’ve expressed a clear desire to communicate your historical view of the orchestral model, so what’s the answer? As it stands, it sounds like the old orchestra model worked for a while, but now audiences don’t want it. Orchestras are trying to adapt in ways that you consider banal, so they should abandon that approach.

By all appearances, it sounds like we should just let a large number of orchestras go out of business entirely, leaving only the largest and wealthiest cities with access to classical music.

The "solution/option" is to play behind oldies cover bands at dinner/pops concerts, or quit.

To the patrons, Paul Whiteman fare is "classical".

...again, the (thread topic) "winning the job" mentality: tends to make those who serve in orchestras feel as though they actually have a say. They don't.

"Maestro, I'd like to phrase this oboe solo in I've Got You Babe like th.."
"NO. PLAY IT LIKE THE RECORD !!!"

tubacolleague wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 6:17 pm The fall of Rome, really? What a defeatist attitude. It seems like you’re taking gigs away from people who actually like what they do!

"taking gigs from..." ?

bloke wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:41 pm

tubacolleague wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2024 6:17 pm The fall of Rome, really? What a defeatist attitude. It seems like you’re taking gigs away from people who actually like what they do!

"taking gigs from..." ?

Well, as we've said, everyone is replaceable, so presumably there is a list of people who could not only play your gigs as well as you, but also enjoy it. I think that's what they mean by "taking gigs from".

Someone would either need to be fired or leave. I don't recall musicians ever being polled by management asking them if they "enjoy" their jobs... which tells me that I'm pretty sure that management doesn't much care about that.

Over the years, I've watched a lot of very talented friends (typically, among the best musicians) walk away from the music performance industry. (Recently, an amazing trumpet player - with a terminal degree and all that jazz - walked away to accept a job taking care of horses, because it pays a lot more, and the horses are easier to work with... maybe that's sort of like me and dented up sousaphones.) I'm pretty sure that most employees in most Industries have figured out that "respect" is not part of what they're going to get in exchange for their work (and it's certainly not part of the music industry) but music performance just doesn't pay anything. The $60 to $100 an hour that symphony orchestras musicians might be paid doesn't include any of the practice time that's required to maintain their skills (maybe...?? I'm talking to the wrong people here, because - when I'm really busy with my primary occupation and only pull the instrument out at rehearsals and performances, I can show up for jobs having not practiced at all, and still play the whole notes and quarter notes that are on the pages of tuba parts.. but I don't think this is the case with most of the other musicians who actually have stuff to play) and it certainly doesn't include the potential return on their Investments were they to sell their instruments (thinking of the value of some of the fiddles, in particular) and investing that money in something that would yield interest, dividends, or growth...
...Imagine being hired to help build an interstate highway, and being expected to show up with your own trackhoe.

The management and boards are constantly looking towards lower and lower salaries to pay "the help". (My son-in-law - who plays in one of the top American orchestras - has had two real dollar amount salary cuts since accepting their job, while - at the same time - the value of dollars has dropped in half - as all of us have experienced.) One solution - for management who may be looking towards paying something like $15 an hour or less...?? - might (??) be these 20 or 30 million "undocumented" people who have been brought in over the past three years or so. I bet you some of those people are pretty good at playing music.

I can't help but suspect that boards and management think like this: "After you pay someone $12 or $13 an hour to make a fish sandwich or a hamburger or a fried chicken breast, at least there's a tangible product there that people actually line up to consume, but we don't get anything like that out of the people we hire..."

Orchestras frequently conduct surveys for their musicians to provide input and feedback. Just because you’ve never filled one out, doesn’t mean they don’t happen.

Colby Fahrenbacher wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 7:14 am Orchestras frequently conduct surveys for their musicians to provide input and feedback. Just because you’ve never filled one out, doesn’t mean they don’t happen.

LOL...oh those... I'm sure those are sent out with the utmost sincerity and the very highest level of concern...

... while at the same time at their meetings (again), these sorts of things are uttered:

If we cut their pay/services/rehearsals again, where the hell else will they go?

I sort of feel like - if at least half of the concerts are classical concerts, and they don't cheap out with a bunch of those all Bach/Mozart type of low-personnel concerts, and I'm actually hired and get to play - then I'll go along with whatever, but - when they become nearly completely or 100% pops orchestras - I want a whole bunch more per service, because then it just becomes "a gig" such as a "Celtic Women" concert or something like that where you're actually paid decently) rather than any sort of memorable experience.

Have you sat in on a lot of orchestra board meetings or contract negotiations?

I have several exasperated friends who have. (That stuff is for no pay, and I just don't feel like spending additional time - with something for which I'm paid - for no pay.) Based on their reports (and they are quite capable people, one of whom works just underneath the chancellor at a major university as their real job) it's pretty exasperating. There's really no negotiating and there's no respect. All there is - reportedly - is surface courtesy and pay cuts. I can't remember the slang term for this type of lawyer/negotiator, but symphony boards higher these guys that come in who are experts at deep pay cuts in negotiations. Does anyone else remember that slang term for those type of people?

All I'm suggesting is that - as they American orchestra bidnuss is a dying industry run by people who are trying to not pay much of anything to keep it going, and - when the coffers are increased that never has anything to do with musician pay increases, that everyone in this industry from freeway philharmonic to big five probably ought to have another thing that they do that pays at least as much or more. Long deceased (and I doubt if too many people here would recognize their name, though they were very prolific regarding solo recordings), there was a Boston Symphony oboist who made considerably more selling real estate than playing in the Boston Symphony. I wouldn't be surprised to discover that they ran ads in the programs.

Management/administrator surveys aren’t for the benefit of those surveyed. They’re for the benefit of management and are often. (Usually…) used against the surveyed.

It’s never, ever, “we want to know what flavors of ice cream you all like so we can treat you to celebrate your pay raise.”

I don’t fill them out unless forced and then I’m reserved in comment. Luckily, no one asks me anymore.

MiBrassFS wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2024 7:37 am Management/administrator surveys aren’t for the benefit of those surveyed. They’re for the benefit of management and are often. (Usually…) used against the surveyed.

It’s never, ever, “we want to know what flavors of ice cream you all like so we can treat you to celebrate your pay raise.”

I don’t fill them out unless forced and then I’m reserved in comment. Luckily, no one asks me anymore.

This, and me as well. Typically, I read down through the questions, chuckle, and dismiss.

I have three pretty smart grandchildren. One of them is extraordinarily/scary smart. I'm not trying to claim that they are more emotionally mature than anyone else their age, but they can reason and they can quickly comprehend. Their academic achievements speak for themselves, and their instrumental skills are internationally competitive at their age. Having witnessed what their father goes through in his full-time experience, they have no interest in pursuing a music career. I believe a lot of university and conservatory students are under the impression that playing music for a living is sort of like being in the all-state band.

"We shouldn't discourage them from pursuing their dream" never goes further to say "yet we should make it clear that much of what they are doing is dreaming, and they should constantly be made aware of and reminded of the stark realities". ... pulling away from the performance industry and looking at the institutionalized teaching industry, look how university teachers are treated. Most of them swim around in the adjunct sewer before eventually moving on, and those that actually get hired on full-time are usually dismissed prior to tenure, with those who are actually kept being given this entry level "associate professor" title and having to play all sorts of games to work their way up - as salmon swimming upstream - in order to be paid enough to be able to buy these double-price groceries or scrape together one of these double-priced house down payments. In the very same way as the musicians in symphony orchestras, professors at university are thought of as "the help". The thing is - as a taxpayer (with most of these institutions being government run), I would much prefer for as many teachers as possible - all disciplines - at that level to be adjunct.

I'm about to start my 30th year of playing in the same symphony. We don't play the big brassy classics nearly enough, though I have played most of the big ones over the 30 year time span.

I enjoy pops concerts. Big name Guest artists and/or music that packs the house and leaves people cheering and I wish we did more of them


Thinking back over the last 30 years, with some rare exceptions (pictures, planets, symphony fantastique). Every one of my favorite memories has been something pops or guest artist related