British baritone mouthpiece

[Mary Ann]

One fellow who is playing baritone in the brass band uses a mouthpiece that to me looks tiny, especially compared to a typical euph mouthpiece. (I don't have him available to ask until the band starts up again.) The charts I've looked at, like Werden's, look like the bari pieces are similar to tbone pieces. Wondering if someone "up" on bari horns knows about narrow-width bari cups? When I played a borrowed Besson bari in the band a few years ago, I don't remember the mouthpiece much. The reason I'm asking is I'm trying to find a way to get away from the euph-sized mpc (on a euph) in our quintet, which just doesn't work for my face. If I could get a bari mpc that is much narrower, I might get a bari to play in the group.

[bloke]

I personally view anything from (as Bach size references, if allowed) 11C up to 6-1/2AL (or slightly outside this range) to be viable for this application.

If someone prefers a cup profile within this range but a subtly wider embouchure opening than the familiar-to-all 6-1/2 embouchure-exposure width, that's their choice as is any mouthpiece choice - even if it doesn't line up at all with bloke's suggested guidelines.

As this is only one person's opinion, I view mouthpieces which are much smaller or much larger to begin to move away from (on either end of the spectrum) the characteristic sound of the British baritone (which - in such a homogeneous type of ensemble - is really important that it retain its own characteristic and easily-identifiable type of sound/resonance).

For similar reasons, I've always (and I often get push-back) questioned the "because Fletch had one stuck on his E-flat tuba" the use of 19-inch bells (the same size as contrabass tubas bells) on brass band E-flat tubas (whereby - via the hopefully-logical reasons outlined above - it's very important that the E-flat tuba offer its own characteristic and easily-identifiable type of sound). To be more specific in this analogy, 15-inch-belled compensating E-flat tubas' resonance characteristics are easily distinguishable from that of a 19-inch belled compensating B-flat tubas'.

[MikeS]

The go-to starting point for baritone mouthpieces is the Wick 6BS. Since you are looking for something narrower, you might consider a Wick 9BS. Back in the day, Besson baritones came with a Besson 7 mouthpiece. It is considered way too small by most players today but Katrina Marzella played one for years and sounded fabulous. I don’t know what the inner diameter is. Here is one for sale:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364322270831?i ... R8Kl6K2mZA

The Doug Elliott F cup is my personal choice for baritone. If you feel flush with cash you can get one in the LT series with a Bach 7 size rim. According to Doug’s web site, he sometimes has F cups available in the MT series which would give you the option of a Bach 11 size rim. Go with the 3 size backbore, not the 4.

[iiipopes]

I prefer the Wick Ultra 6 for the baritone (trombone) shank. The American baritone shank is the same as the English brass band baritone shank. The cup is the same diameter as a 6 1/2 AL, but deeper, albeit with a similar throat and backbore. This helps the player get more air through the horn for security of intonation, and the deeper cup helps keep the lowest register from getting grainy. I have one if you want to try it; I'll mail it out; PM your address. I don't think I still have it from our Eb tuba transaction.

[2nd tenor]

The Wick 6BS is pretty much what most folk seem to use in a small bore Trombone and I used one as 2nd Tenor in a Brass Band. Baritones are a similar bore and bell size so the 6BS puts you in the right ‘ball park’. The second and first parts on both baritone and trombone tend to play in different parts of the stave, the firsts playing higher. IIRC the Wick 7C has the same cup diameter as the 7B but is shallower, and that helps with the higher pitch range.
https://www.deniswick.com/wp-content/up ... -Chart.pdf

Good luck.

[Mary Ann]

Thanks everybody. I was talking British baritone, just for clarity. Since this is a VERY informal but also very long-standing quintet that plays only for fun, and not even that often; the sound doesn't matter, just the playability. I have often played horn on the tbone part. I had been using first a kelly 5G on my Sterling Perantucci, whose sound I like, but my face wears out; there is something about that width of mouthpiece that just doesn't work for me. I'm now playing my friend's yam 201 instead of my Sterling, because it is easier for me, and with a 12C, and it is still the width, not the depth, that is the problem. They don't care what I sound like (frankly, I can get a decent sound out of anything I'm used to) but I care how long I can last and whether I have to take the higher notes down an octave. With no other brass do I have a big red mark on my lip like I do with this size cup, and with no other brass am I the first one to have to stop due to having pooped out. (I can play tuba forever, horn not so much.) think I'd have to see some cups and compare them to what I have used, before I could decide to buy something. Probably will just wait until the band starts up again and will ask to see what that fellow is using. Maybe it just looks small because he's a big tuba-sized guy.

[MikeS]

Maybe I’m reading your post incorrectly but are you saying that even the 12C is too wide? The only readily available ‘piece I can think of that still has enough depth to sound ok on baritone is a Bach 19. The Bach catalog lists it at 24.0mm vs the 12C’s 24.5. To go really small, Cather Music Services makes alto trombone mouthpieces in the 21-22mm range. They are beautifully made and not at all cheap. A friend of mine has one that he uses when he wants a really light sound on alto.

http://cathermusic.com/subpage9.html

I have no idea what the result would be if you wrapped a bunch of tape around an alto horn mouthpiece shank. That would get you into the 18.5-19.5mm range.

[Kevbach33]

If you can find one, maybe a Schilke 44E4 would be worth trying. 24.28mm inside, very deep cup.

But my suggestion is different: get a lesson with Doug Elliott if you haven't already. It might not necessarily be due to the size of the pieces, but also how you play them, that you get fatigued so quickly.

If one of his pieces is the answer, and you really can't play bigger sizes, it might be an ST 94 or 95 rim, E cup and E3 shank, perhaps. However, the solution could be different altogether, and might not even be a new mouthpiece.

In short: talk to Doug. It's a button the "chattle" at the slide forum wishes was available.

[Mary Ann]

I took a lesson from Doug because he was convinced that the reason anyone, including me, gets dystonia is because they are not using the right embouchure set for their face. I unfortunately proved him wrong and he found nothing whatsoever wrong with my embouchure setup. Nope, I think it is the missing tooth along with the fact that I'm not someone who is a natural high player. I don't know where I read the following, maybe on a Facebook group, but it was advice to teachers who were starting students on brass instruments. He said he would not start a student on trumpet unless they could buzz a high C within three days, because they were going to have to struggle. Similarly, he wouldn't start someone on tuba unless they could buzz low easily. I buzz low easily, and the only reason I'm decent on horn is because of the immense amount of time I put into it. Tuba has been relatively easy in comparison.

[arpthark]

I sound okay on trombone, decent on euph, and good on tuba (IMO).

On cornet I am bad, trumpet is horrible, and horn is horrendous (objectively).

I have big, thick lips and a very pronounced heart-shaped dip in my upper lip that makes finding a good embouchure for higher brass difficult.

[Mary Ann]

You made me think of a local person who is, of course, haha, the opposite. She is a high level tenor sax player, quite excellent on oboe, has some kind of advanced "D" degree in some instrument, and she decided to take up trombone. I have never ever heard a worse sound on trombone, and it never got any better -- sounded like someone trying to play a blanket and make it sound like a brass. (Mph Mph Mph.) She has very thick lips. After a couple years of that, she decided to take up horn, and I thought Oh No! And -- it did take a while but she gets a fine sound on the horn, with those lips! I never could figure out why she sounded the way she did on trombone. I kept wanting to shout "BLOW!"

[gocsick]

I have big, thick lips and a very pronounced heart-shaped dip in my upper lip that makes finding a good embouchure for higher brass difficult.

I also have a similar lip structure, and I use an of center embouchure for trumpet. I can't say I am any good, I really just started. The teacher I've had a few lessons with, while finding many faults with my playing, says my embouchure is fine.

[the elephant]

I did not read anything other than your post, MA, but I am betting at least a few will recommend a small shank Bach 6 1/2 AL.

I would, too.

[2nd tenor]

I don't know where I read the following, maybe on a Facebook group, but it was advice to teachers who were starting students on brass instruments. He said he would not start a student on trumpet unless they could buzz a high C within three days, because they were going to have to struggle. Similarly, he wouldn't start someone on tuba unless they could buzz low easily. I buzz low easily, and the only reason I'm decent on horn is because of the immense amount of time I put into it. Tuba has been relatively easy in comparison.

That’s an interesting insight - thank you for sharing - and perhaps a signpost too. I do think that teeth and face shape make a difference to what’s more difficult and sometimes it’s a case of going with what’s not too hard. Of course it will take time to build chops that work well on a Baritone mouthpiece, there is no silver bullet for that, and if your lips tire and show use then it’s time to both rest and (once recovered) practice more. It’s good to be able to double but maybe you’d be better to focus on playing the Eb Tuba, play to your strengths and leave stuff you find hard to someone else who doesn’t.

[Mary Ann]

I did not read anything other than your post, MA, but I am betting at least a few will recommend a small shank Bach 6 1/2 AL.

I would, too.

That is unfortunately right in the middle of what doesn't work -- I can't play on one of those and never could. It's not big enough and not small enough all at the same time. My guess is that what I have to work with embouchure-wise, doesn't need strength I don't have in the tuba range, and gets rim support in the horn range. In the euph range, I don't have the type of strength I need and also don't get the rim support I do from a horn cup. I am continually gabberflasted when I read that euph is the easiest brass, because it just isn't for me.

Obviously I haven't made clear what my euph usage is -- the quintet meets "on occasion" and that is the only time I play that part. I don't practice that instrument; I can walk in and do fine on horn even if I haven't picked it up in months, although my stamina will be low, after about ten minutes. Tuba same way; I can play it once a week or far less often and have no trouble. With dystonia, I simply cannot practice because if I do -- I have to quit playing for a while until the brain settles down again. Do not ask me how I still sound good, but I do; (and I don't mean I sound like Chris Olka; I mean I sound like me.) Somehow I don't forget how to play, no matter the instrument, and others would verify that if you asked them. Technique level may fall but sound doesn't. That doesn't mean I'm at top form but it means I am not in the ditch either.

[Finetales]

Wick 9BS or SM9B, Schilke 44E4, Warburton 15D, Pickett 11D, Josef Klier Exclusive 10B (trombone) or 12D (tenor horn*), Bruno Tilz 213 tenor horn* pieces (the 1 size is truly tiny, at 22mm).

*meaning German Bb tenor horn, with standard trombone small shank.

[Vegasbound]

IMHO, speak to Doug Elliott, maybe even have a Skype lesson with him, you will have a much better understanding of your chops and how to make them work correctly and more efficiently!

All equipment choices are a compromise, DE’s 3 piece system allows you to get close if not the optimum for you, yes his stuff seems expensive, but not compared to the draw full of mouthpieces a lot of players have. And Doug always suggests other alternatives to his stuff that may work for you.

Just a thought !

[Mary Ann]

@Vegasbound -- As i have stated before, I have had that lesson with Doug (did you read the thread?) and am using the right embouchure for my face. He suggested no changes.

[Vegasbound]

Yes, I read the thread, so what did DE suggest you use for playing baritone?

[Mary Ann]

That lesson was years ago; it concerned horn and dystonia. I think we are cross-talking for some reason but whatever. My casual question has ballooned into a TFFJ saga.