trombone rant

[bloke]

When people play old theme and variations solos on their trombones, I would like to hear them play these with half inch bore or smaller instruments as was originally done. These huge, huger, and hugest trombones today mostly sound like English baritones or euphoniums, rather than trombones.
I also think it would be interesting to hear principal players in orchestras use similar instruments on most principal parts, unless they are obviously E-flat alto trombone parts.
What if...
1st - .580" - .510"
2nd - .525" - .550"
3rd - .562"+
Everybody plays Bolero on their giant trombones, and it really doesn't sound like a trombone. Plus, there's all that high/loud stuff after the solo, and it's sort of an endurance challenge, whereby I doubt that Ravel meant it to be.
I have a music director with very good ears who often asks for more from the trombones. I suspect he's trying to get more trombone characteristic sound, rather than actually more volume.
I guess it's just as difficult to lure them away from their giant equipment as it is to lure us away from ours.


troll...??
It's up to you to decide.

[Schlitzz]

Here’s the viola part on that wonderful work by Ravel….

[media] [/media]

[bloke]

If they're being paid, they should at least be required to hold their bows.

[Schlitzz]

If they're being paid, they should at least be required to hold their bows.

The standard viola aptitude test measures their ability to manipulate the straw in a fast food drink. Doesn’t really translate into holding the bow.

[jtm]

And I was thinking my Bach 36 was small....

[bloke]

And I was thinking my Bach 36 was small....

Great comment.
Trombones are supposed to be an alto, tenor, and bass extension of the trumpet section, whether or not the trombones happen to have a slide or valves.

[bloke]

And I was thinking my Bach 36 was small....

Great comment.
Trombones are supposed to be an alto, tenor, and bass extension of the trumpet section, whether or not the trombones happen to have a slide or valves.

again:
Sonically, (5G and larger mouthpieces and big fat instruments) they've become English baritones, euphoniums, and associated with the horns. If a trombone in a symphony orchestra sounds the least bit sassy, eyebrows are raised.

[Casca Grossa]

I want to see G bass trombones make a comeback.

[catgrowlB]

This has spilled over into jazz/big band trombones.
This first/solo trombone player in the big band I was playing in always used a medium or large bore Getzen trombone with F-attachment.
I was on bass trombone, with a King 7b copy, which is great for that music.

The first/solo trombone is a good player and can improvise, but would sometimes have difficulty with high range. And I thought the sound was too wide/round for first in big band.
I once asked him if he would consider using a small bore since he is first and plays most solos. He responded something to the effect that he had to prove to himself to be able to play all those parts on his large, modern F-trigger-attachment trombone, with a largish mouthpiece. I just left it at that

And I was thinking my Bach 36 was small....

Vincent Bach himself is said to have considered the Bach 36 to be THE orchestral trombone, even after the larger Bach 42 came out to compete with the large Conn 88h.
Now, you have orchestra players with large tenors like the Conn 88h, Bach 42, Edwards, Shires, etc., affixed with bass trombone slides and large mouthpieces.

The modern brass sound (especially in orchestras) is more and more boring to listen to. I find myself keep going back to previous recordings made decades ago to listen to most music, whether big band, orchestra or something else.

[bloke]

This has spilled over into jazz/big band trombones.
This first/solo trombone player in the big band I was playing in always used a medium or large bore Getzen trombone with F-attachment.
I was on bass trombone, with a King 7b copy, which is great for that music.

The first/solo trombone is a good player and can improvise, but would sometimes have difficulty with high range. And I thought the sound was too wide/round for first in big band.
I once asked him if he would consider using a small bore since he is first and plays most solos. He responded something to the effect that he had to prove to himself to be able to play all those parts on his large, modern F-trigger-attachment trombone, with a largish mouthpiece. I just left it at that

And I was thinking my Bach 36 was small....

Vincent Bach himself is said to have considered the Bach 36 to be THE orchestral trombone, even after the larger Bach 42 came out to compete with the large Conn 88h.
Now, you have orchestra players with large tenors like the Conn 88h, Bach 42, Edwards, Shires, etc., affixed with bass trombone slides and large mouthpieces.

The modern brass sound (especially in orchestras) is more and more boring to listen to. I find myself keep going back to previous recordings made decades ago to listen to most music, whether big band, orchestra or something else.

yeah...
I believe the .547" trombone / 6/4 tuba thing is often "because of what other players will think" vs. "what sounds best".

I have a 6/4 thing, but I only use it when I specifically want to sound "like that".
That being said, it requires more precision to play it well, so I spend way more time at home with it.

[cmccain]

I saw someone else on the forum say that they try to bring "the smallest equipment that will get the job done" to a gig. It's a sentiment I wish more people agreed with. I do think a full section of .547 trombones is the right choice for a lot of orchestral pieces--and a completely unnecessary setup for many others.

In the same vein, I remember my high school band director about 10 years ago decided we needed to march only marching euphoniums and no trombones because "the sound was better." Every year the band did that, our scores were docked because it sounded bland and the low brass never had as much punch as our competitors. The next director switched back to marching small bore trombones, and all of a sudden the low brass had its punch again.

I would hazard a guess that the desire for uniform equipment that so many music directors seem to have is part of the problem. The projection a .508 trombone brings to a section can actually draw the audience's ear to the rest of the low brass while still fitting in the sound of the section, whether that's in an orchestral section or another ensemble. Most of my favorite performances I've seen, both jazz/commerical and legit, involved a trombone section with different sized instruments in the same section.

[bloke]

Yep.
(You've read this in my posts before...)

Today's American wind bands (in one old guy's opinion) are WAY too "mezzo" (ref: tone quality of most sections) as well as way too many alto voice/range instruments.

Western music is (most often) melody, bass, and enough chording to dress it up.

People are attracted to orchestral music because of the (unapologetic) shimmer of strings...and sure...with a BAND sitting behind them, for variety and power.

In the past (even the old E.W.E. recordings) bands offered far more shimmer (smaller instruments and mouthpieces + sound concept).

[gocsick]

I once asked him if he would consider using a small bore since he is first and plays most solos. He responded something to the effect that he had to prove to himself to be able to play all those parts on his large, modern F-trigger-attachment trombone, with a largish mouthpiece. I just left it at that

That sounds exactly like high school kids saying they are "... too skilled for a beginner mouthpiece" need a "bigger more advanced mouthpiece for their tuba." God.... the last thing i want to do is play any instrument on Hard Mode.


Even though I live in the Midwest.... I have been lucky enough to see Brian Drye and his Silversonic 2B play in Hadestown on Broadway a few times now. To me that is the quintessential trombone sound... the sound I try to make a pale imitation of when I play trombone.

[bloke]

Curiously, the one wind instrument which has moved towards more treble in the sound over the last fifty years (in the USA) has been the horn, and this has probably mostly been due to the Chicago Symphony influence (horns with smaller bell throats). Alexander horns in Germany naturally sound that way, because their bell throats are also small - compared to some of the other makes/styles of horns...
... so horns are sounding more like trombones, and trombones are sounding more like horns.

[tubanh84]

Curiously, the one wind instrument which has moved towards more treble in the sound over the last fifty years (in the USA) has been the horn, and this has probably mostly been due to the Chicago Symphony influence (horns with smaller bell throats). Alexander horns in Germany naturally sound that way, because their bell throats are also small - compared to some of the other makes/styles of horns...
... so horns are sounding more like trombones, and trombones are sounding more like horns.

To me, it's always been like money-ball in baseball. The whole point is to "beat the system." It doesn't matter what "the system" is - the person who figures out how to beat it starts driving innovation.

In brass playing, it would be a sound that turns heads that ends up winning auditions. Someone who sounds different than everyone else, but is impressive as well. Everyone plays treble-y? The virtuoso with the big bass sound will stand out and leave the panel in awe. That becomes the norm? The player with the piercing but powerful "clear" sound starts winning.

Now I'm going to contradict myself. I also have said and will keep saying that a back-to-back audition system doesn't necessarily find the best fit for an orchestra. The bigger instrument will fill the hall in a more complete way. It will stand out and give the impression of being the more impressive player. That doesn't mean it's the right sound for the group. Just that it makes the best impression being played solo in an empty hall. I get that orchestras have systems in place for this - trial weeks, trial seasons, etc...But it doesn't change the impact of "So-and-so just won xyz full time orchestra position" and the inevitable follow-up: "What were they playing???"

And going back to smaller bore trombones and an EQUALLY APPROPRIATELY-SIZED TUBA would take either agreement of the entire section at once, or an order of the music director overriding any objections from the players. There's no point in one player sizing down when no one else will.

Anyway. It's been a long month. I'm tired. Felt like ranting a little. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.