For You MP Gurus Out There

[John Caves]

I've been watching this forum for years, and finally have a question. I've been using the large Conn Helleburg mp on a Mirafone 191 tuba for years and thought I liked it. Lately I tried Kelly 18 and liked it very much, except for it's smaller rim size. Is there a 'piece with a Kelly 18 cup and a lg Helleburg rim?

Thanks for your help and wisdom.
John

[PlayTheTuba]

Laskey and Warburton? At least for a "1 piece" mouthpiece. I still own a laskey 32H, I think I tried a 32G too and it felt similar to each other.

[donn]

Even the Conn 120 Helleberg might not be guaranteed to come with the rim you have, as they've reportedly tinkered with that over the years. You can read a lot of interesting history of this mouthpiece here: The Post WW2 Conn Helleberg.

For whatever reason, there are a lot of mouthpieces out there that use the name, or include the name in the manufacturer's description, that aren't very much like your mouthpiece. Even when they're overt copies - for example, Faxx makes a nice one, but couldn't resist giving the flat a little bit of a dish, which I think is an excellent idea but wasn't ever Conn's idea as far as I know.

Anyway, a relatively economical mouthpiece that's popular here in Europe, with what seems to be me to be a flattish rim, is the Josef Klier JK Exclusive.


I have a couple of these, and the one you want is just "Exclusive", not "Exclusive Classic" which has a more Helleberg like V-shaped cup. They come in all sizes; don't "size up", would be my advice, they kind of feel big for their published size measurements.

[matt g]

If you like the Bach rim, a 12 and 7 are larger than the 18. Different cup shape than the Helleberg, but it seems to work fine on rotary tubas. When I had a 188, my primary mouthpiece was the Bach 7. Good match.

[Pauvog1]

If you want a Helleberg style rim and a Bach 18-ish cup.

I wonder if you'd like the Laskey 32B, or 32G (the B is deeper, the G is more lively, but not shallow either). I really like the 30H, but it runs a little too sharp leaning on my current horn, I image a 30 or 32H might be worth trying on the 191, but that would be a more Helleberg II style cup.

Maybe check out the Warburton "Grail" series

Maybe also look at the Canadian Brass AJ piece.

You might ask Bloke aka Joe about a Sellmansberger Symphony cup with a Helleberg XD rim. They have a few styles and diameters you might like. A former teacher of mine has that exact set up on a 191 and he really likes it. That would probably be my first choice if I owned a 191.

If you wanted a more boutique option, you could always try to find someone to make you a Bach 7 or 12 with a Helleberg rim. I think I'd explore the other option above first.

[TheBerlinerTuba]

I would recommend Austrian mouthpiece maker Windhager. The mouthpieces are 3 part modular and he made me something very similar to what you are asking for a couple years ago:

https://www.whf-mouthpieces.com/en

[Three Valves]

If you like the Bach rim, a 12 and 7 are larger than the 18. Different cup shape than the Helleberg, but it seems to work fine on rotary tubas. When I had a 188, my primary mouthpiece was the Bach 7. Good match.

Bach 12 here!

[donn]

I would recommend Austrian mouthpiece maker Windhager. The mouthpieces are 3 part modular and he made me something very similar to what you are asking for a couple years ago:

https://www.whf-mouthpieces.com/en

I was a little put off by that site, to say the least, but he publishes a remarkably detailed brochure here, in English - http://www.whf-mouthpieces.at/ (select "english version" for the PDF, not sure I can link directly to a PDF here.) I mean, remarkably - I've never seen anything that comes close. The rim choices would seem to encompass anything that anyone could want. And then you can ponder over a variety of cup and backbore options.

[Schlitzz]

IMHO, you should Skype/FaceTime a guy like Bloke, Doug Elliott, etc, and get fitted. I’m 6’11” and get fitted for everything now. Clothes, car seat modifications…..

[smitwil1]

When I asked Doug Elliott for the same combination of rim and cup--back in 1990 or so--he recommended his TU-R 130 cup and a matching 4N rim, which is now listed as TU N130 Flat. Then, pick out a shank with a taper that fits your horn... He used to have a range of backbores, but I don't see those listed on his current site. You may want to call him, as he's always been helpful to me in the past.

[bloke]

I'm not an expert. I design and sell mouthpieces, don't do much of any sort of effort towards marketing them, and mostly they are altered cup, rim, throat, back bore versions of things that I've owned, thought they had potential - but weren't quite hitting the mark, and messed around with on my cheap lathe until I came up with what I perceived were optimum versions of those designs that I was interested in using myself. Once I come up with prototypes that I really like, I have others with quality equipment reproduce them.
Quite a few people have bought my stuff without me marketing it very aggressively at all. Some people move on to other mouthpieces, and some people have stuck with mine (various of mine) for a long time. Some things that I believe I've learned are that mouthpieces do well with particular models or particular types of models and sizes, and that to use the same embouchure opening on mouthpieces for widely varying sizes of related instruments "no matter what" is probably humbug. I've also learned that some people are so talented that they can take a mouthpiece that - to me - is awfully difficult to use, and do wonderful things with them. Another thing that I believe I've learned is that a lot of contact area against the face is not particularly helpful and nor is a sharp inside so-called "bite"... but I don't try to be any sort of preacher, and realize that people can't necessarily be convinced of anything in particular. A whole lot of people believe that stainless steel mouthpieces (of absolutely identical design to silver plated brass ones) are going to sound different. I can't help those people not believe that, so I don't devote any energy to trying to convince them that they're going to sound the same. I'm a huge fan of stainless steel rims, because they are so very scratch and wear resistant compared to plated brass rims. The rest of the mouthpiece could be made of just about any sort of plastic or metal, as long as it holds its shape and isn't toxic. The drawback I have found with screwing plastic mouthpiece bodies to stainless steel or brass rims is that they tend to seize, otherwise I probably would have been offering something like this for sale.

In summary, I don't really "know" anything, and certainly don't have any ways to apply the scientific method to my trial and error experiences. One member here called me out for not being scientific. I can't disagree.

[GC]

I think the Warburton 28-D might fit you well. The cup diameter is the same as the Bach 18's, and the rim is like a slightly rounded Helleberg (not the flat rim).

[Stryk]

I bought one a couple months ago because it was an oddity to me. It was basically a Conn 2 cup with a Bach 18 rim - marked A. EASTMAN. I know that's not what you are looking for, but you may want to look at some of the cheapos on Amazon - you may find what you are looking for.