WTH? A Holton 345 with SIX VALVES?

[the elephant]

I’ll check tomorrow morning (tonight if I can). Thanks!

[the elephant]

After examining this union pretty thoroughly, I have come to believe that the use of a pin wrench is a layer of complexity added for no real reason. It seems to be a pretty poorly thought-out idea on Yamaha's part. It adds cost and complexity and weakens the horn. Either solder the leadpipe on via a traditional ferrule or delete the need for a pin wrench by deleting the holes and adding some simple, inexpensive knurling.

I will make this part more functional by filling the four pin holes with nickel M2 button-head screws. This will permanently seal the holes and give me "grippers" to allow easier engagement and disengagement of the lock ring.

You're welcome, Yamaha. (I'll bill you for my consulting work.)

This is a nice set of parts and will make fitting a 6th valve within the available space on my Holton much easier.

[MiBrassFS]

I once stuck some cornet 2nd valve pull knobs on the YamaUnion on a friend’s “custom built” tuba. We joked that it looked like the bolts on “Frankenstein’s monster’s” neck often seen in movies, etc. It actually looked good and like they belonged there. Yamaha probably doesn’t do something similar to prevent young scholars from fiddling with them.

[the elephant]

I can finally make some accurate measurements—no more "eyecrometer" readings. It looks like the new assembly will be 3/8" longer than the current one.

In the photo, the measured length is currently 3", but after trimming the three involved knuckles a bit, the length will be 2 5/8", which is a huge improvement when working with such tight spacing. By removing the extra 1" of length I designed into my leadpipe, this will have the net effect of adding 5/16" of pull to my MTS.

[York-aholic]

Yamaha probably doesn’t do something similar to prevent young scholars from fiddling with them.

I was thinking the same. Avoids kid telling band director, “this horn has a weird vibration and plays like crap!”

[bloke]

I think you guys are making my argument for Yamaha's purpose for its detachable braces on some of its models...
... and I have no idea how many times a compression fitting will continue to seal when taken apart and put back together. I'm not making a statement in the form of a question. I'm just saying that I don't know.

[the elephant]

It isn't a compression fitting, though. It is a union. Those are two different things. This will last forever. Compression fittings have to be replaced once removed—the ferrule is crushed onto the two halves permanently and is not reusable. 9i even took the time to confirm that with a local plumber on the phone before posting this.) A union is made to be taken apart and put back together. It is tightened with a wrench (or by hand) and loosened in the same manner, as needed.

Whatever you think about Yamaha's intentions (and I do not disagree with you on this), this is a fully reusable fitting. It is beefy and will not fail unless it is very badly abused, as in intentional damage. The ferrule-like bits are over a mm in thickness, like two or three times as thick as the tubing they will live on. The lock ring is thick. The male and female faces are well made and heavy but not as well designed as those used on the King/Conn tubas. Rob did those for them, and he did a nice job of building in correct alignment when you screw down the lock ring. The Yamaha parts can be misaligned if you are not careful, causing the lock ring to cross-thread. In my use case, there is no way for the two ends to be misaligned, so there is no real issue.

Other than that, there are only four threads in the lock ring; Conn-Selmer's has six threads. And the use of a pin wrench is a dumb idea. They needed to put knurling on the ring (like Conn-Selmer), whether they cemented it in place or not.

Twice now, Yamaha has told me the intent was to make these difficult for kids to take apart. (Screw braces have a gob of glue in the Philips slot, for example.) However, it was intended for technicians (or non-technicians such as yourself) to easily take down the horns using heat, like red threadlocker, but using a lot less heat. We are supposed to "reglue" everything after a repair to keep your beloved "young scholars" at bay. I am not sure I believe that. Personally, I believe the idea of these braces and this union being a means to aid production, not really to be used by us mere mortals as an aid to repair or service.

Regardless, this is a fully reusable part that can be taken down every day, several times a day, for many years. It is as robust as any other screwable item on a tuba made today. (Keep it clean, boys.) Lucky for me, if I am wrong, I only take this horn down about three or four times a year, so it ought to last me… at least… six months!

[the elephant]

My wandering common sense has kicked in again, changing my project mid-path.

(again)

I have decided that I don't care that the two rotors are different brands. I *like* the Miraphone valves. I prefer them. My two St. Pete valves were damaged, and the one I intend to use for my 5th valve now works perfectly and (more importantly) fits within the highly restricted space. So I will use it and the currently in use 5th valve BECAUSE IT IS EASIER. Also, so far as I can guess, the 5th will receive much more use than the 6th, so the better set of bearings will be the better choice for me.

I have to remind myself that no one other than me cares about details like this. And at moments like this, I don't care, either.

Now my once-again-amended plan is to replace the current tenon on the 6th branch with the union half and replace the spacer tube on the 5th valve with a longer one and the other union half (with the lock ring). After Prokofiev (the performance is a week from tonight), I can put that lock ring half onto the knuckle of 6th an see whether it will fit in that crazy-tight space with room to function. There is a good chance it will not work, but I feel like I have to at least try.

Regardless of whether I can shoehorn a 6th valve into this area, the union is as good as the Conn-Selmer union on the leadpipe, and it is the correct bore size (after I made some adjustments), so it will replace my whole tenon assembly. I never liked that solution, so this makes me happy. The tenon is nickel silver to nickel silver slide tubing, which can get stuck. I had a heck of a time getting the 5th valve off last time because the tenon is so short, and to remove it, the built-in alignment has to be removed, so it bound up for several minutes. A union cannot do that but will still hold the assembly in line with everything else once fully tightened.

All my weird construction ideas are finally being realized. I had to compromise on a lot of things at first due to a lack of parts (or a lack of ideas), but every problem has been solved now. Well, on the Holton. I still want to replace the King braces on my Kurath with something stronger. They are not in any imminent danger of failing, but they are most certainly the weak link in my design. I like how Kanstul made their detachable "tab" braces, and now that I have better machine tools, I can make my own like theirs, so the weak-looking King braces can be deleted. The Kurath is a very heavy tuba, and I am afraid the King braces will fail at a bad moment. Of course, I am paranoid, too, so there is that to consider.

After all this work, I hope this is not a waste of time. I have learned to love the 6th valve on my Kurath. Whether or not I use this 6th valve very often, I hope it adds utility to the horn.

If not, removal is always an easy option. I just hate wasting my own time on stupid ideas. But I think this may be a pretty good one.

We shall see.

After playing Joe's 2165W (W for "weaponized") with a 6th valve in the bugle, I found that there is no discernable difference in the blow with the additional valve. Personally, I can feel it when a 5th valve has been deleted or added, but once that bit of restriction has been added, additional rotary valves do not seem to make things much more restrictive. (They are more free-flowing than pistons in most cases, I guess.)

Anyway, Joe's tuning valve acted as a replacement for a longish slide pull, so it added the weight of the valve and lever and such, but not much of a slide. My 6th adds a short slide to the mix, and my valve is somewhat smaller, so the net effect of the weight ought to be the same. So, mechanically speaking, I do not foresee any issues. What I see as my issue is whether I will ever actually USE it enough to merit all this work. I like intellectual challenges, to be sure, but I also like projects like this to end with a usable item.

Goodnight.

[the elephant]

God, I can't STFU tonight.

Sorry.

[bloke]

I'm watching Jack Palance play Dracula on metv. You might want to try it.

[the elephant]

I don't have a television (or cable, of course). Isn't MeTV a cable thing?
______

I am currently buried in work so this project will be on the back burner for about a week. Until then, here are some comparative photos of the Conn-Selmer and Yamaha unions. Yamaha currently makes these in at least two sizes or at least shows them installed on horns in their most current catalogs. One has a .689" bore, and then this one is @ .812" bore.

The more I measure and examine this set of three parts, the more I am confident that it is well made and will stand up to high levels of obsessive/neurotic use. Being both mildly obsessive and neurotic, this pleases me.

The chief differences are the robustness of the lock ring and the shape of the seat. In both cases, the C-S part wins in my estimation, but only by a little. I have used these C-S unions for about ten years with zero issues save for them being somewhat hard to get together, but that has more to do with the shape of my leadpipes and the locations of the other two mounting fixtures than of any fault in the design. They do not leak. They are stout parts. The threading is a bit fine for my taste, so you must be mindful of not cross threading the lock ring. The face shape is more refined and causes the parts to fit together more accurately with less work. This would be good if the end of one of the parts being joined were free to move around. Since my leadpipes all are firmly fixed at both ends, this is not of any real benefit to me.

The Yamaha parts are well made. Well designed? Mostly, I think. The lock ring is of thinner material but is quite stout despite this; I honestly feel that the pin wrench locator holes are a "designed-by-committee" bit of corporate stupidity. Probably some board member's son was given a skate job and was paid a whole mess of yen for this idea. No engineer would weaken the ring like this without a good reason, and—honestly—there is no good reason for this.

The number of threas to engage is the same at 4 each. The thickness is close, with the rounded edges of the Yamaha parts making them appear thinner at first glance.

There's shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo… pan-fried, deep-fried, stir-fried… There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp, pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich… but as far as the differences between the C-S and Yamaha union designs… that… that's about it.

Here are some photos.

Yamaha .812" on left, Conn-Selmer .750" on right…








I really like that this ring is heavily knurled to facilitate removal with bare hands.


If you are going to have to torch this to melt the freaking glue, why then require a special wrench that is non-standard and has a tiny pin that shears off when you use it? Stupid, Yamaha. Stupid. You know repairmen will have to remove this, so why make it so difficult to purchase the tool and why make the tool such a piece of excrement?


I can easily bend many parts of a tuba with my fingers. I cannot bend this. However, I would like it to have no holes, be thicker, and have a knurled outer edge. I am not able to make the male and female halves of this on my lathe. (Yet.) But I *can* make one of these. So maybe I will do just that. Later. Maybe.


I will probably be transferring the 6th slide loop from the Miraphone valve to the refurbished St. Pete unit on Monday. I need to mess around with it some more first. Then I can mount it to the tuba to see if it fits, because it may not. The space is a very complex shape and could contact the valve at four places. It looks to be okay for two of those places, but two of them are too odd for me to just eyeball. I need to get it in there, and to do that, I first have to replace some parts on the bugle.

However, I think this will end up working out pretty well. Sorry for the repetitive post, but hey, photos!

[the elephant]

Interesting observations about the Holton and YamaYork runoff I am having this season.

I used the 826 on the first rehearsal of our recent chop-buster John Williams program but used the 345 for the dress. The Holton won this round and was used for the concert.

Last night, I started with the 345 for the first rehearsal of Prokofiev's 5th Symphony, and it was pretty dang great. Tonight, I used the Yamaha. For me, the Yamaha won this round.

Sort of. I preferred the Holton's sound and "weight", but it is harder work to play. The Yamaha simply played the notes on the page without fuss or flash. Tons of sound with a lot of color or grit to it, effortless intonation (mostly), and a super-easy low register response. Just better.

However. I *liked* the Holton more. I have two more rehearsals, but I cannot do that to my colleagues, so I have to decide tomorrow. (Wednesdays are our official "weekend" as they are our only fixed day off each week.) So I need to decide.

Our bass trombonist and I spoke about it after rehearsal, and he likes the Yamaha better overall but prefers the Holton on the Prokofiev and other works that are scored with the tuba with the basses more than with the trombones. He said it was just more tuba-like, and the weight of the sound was amazing to play against. But the Yamaha was really easy to sit next to and was much more colorful, with more bite to the tone. He said it would be great playing either horn on the concert, but he was secretly voting for the Holton. I agree, but I will likely use the Yamaha because I injured my lower lip two days ago, and it is just easier (less physically demanding) to play for hours at a stretch. It is a good deal smaller and lighter than the Holton, despite the huge sound.

My wife sort of agrees, too. She retired from the orchestra after sixteen years as Horn 4 and only rarely goes to concerts but will sometimes sneak into a rehearsal to see what's up and chat with some folks. She wants to hear the Yamaha in the hall at dress, so she will be tagging along on Friday.

WTF do I do if I decide to keep the Holton and sell the Yamaha? BLASPHEMY!

I am trying very hard to keep both tubas, but I have bills and such, and my Jeep is in bad need of a valve train rebuild. (I have the parts. I lack the gumption.) My wife's car died a hard death about six month ago, so we have been hard-pressed to get by with one gimpy 16 MPG vehicle.

Selling either of these would solve a lot of issues, but she and I both think I need to try to hang on to the Yamaha for my geriatric playing future — it's the ultimate Old Man Tuba. ($1 to @Rick Denney.) And the Holton is my baby. I have worked my a$$ off to make it play this well. I do not want to get rid of it.

That leaves me the Mirafone as a smaller money-generator.

Anyway, the conversations I have been having about these two BATs have been very interesting and thought-provoking for me.

[bloke]

You're getting input here from someone who is off on planet Pluto and you already know what the input is going to be.
==============
Both of those instruments are going to be less work to play than a B-flat, and certainly less work then a B-flat of the same size with a kaiser bore and rotary valves... but the sound thing that attracts you to the Holton would be completely satisfying you with a B flat version, I suspect (??). The Catch-22 is that only a few of those instruments are easily played in tune. Sure, all of them ~can~ be played in tune but when I say - "easily" - I refer to an instrument such as the BB-345 I restored for Kevin Sprecht, which features F's which are just about aligned, B Flats which are just about aligned, and - uncharacteristic of a Holton 345 - a slightly flat Mira-like fifth partial. The huge B flat that I've been teaching myself to play over the past couple of years offers really excellent intonation, but of course still requires first slide manipulation, and the trade-off is the huge bore and the rotary valves, which require that slurring (at the mouth/air level) be much closer to perfect, as the smaller bore with the American style piston instruments of that size are more forgiving in that department. This is no brag on myself. Indeed, I'm working very hard to play smooth legatos on this instrument. It demands more of me than any other instrument I've ever owned (in regards to legato playing).

As much heart and soul as you have invested in that Holton, I'm wondering if a fairly easily played in tune similar instrument.. eek maybe even Chinese might satisfy your Holton fix, whereby you might really enjoy using a 6/4 B-flat (sure, with pistons and the reasonably sized 3/4 inch bore) on pieces like Prokofiev and quite a few other things... and your wonderful Yamaha C on quite a few other things.

Financially, it seems to me that your Holton C has quite a bit more value then a four piston Holton B flat. You should know - though - that the Holton BB345 has enough first slide adjustment to play E Flats, as well as D flats and C's, though I suspect it you wouldn't be able to help tricking one all out, if you had one.

summary:
- The ultimate Holton 345 resonance (undoubtedly alluring) is found in the B-flat version (ok: "in my opinion"), if (??) one can be found at plays in tune easily.
- Financially speaking, if you could conquer the emotional investment, you could probably sell the super-tricked-out CC345 for a good bit more than purchasing a really excellent BB345. ... realize that this last remark is from a person who put a great deal of emotional investment in building several really successful instruments, and sold most of them later when they weren't being used as much as they had been in the past.

post-script remark re: "Chinese"...
If (??) a chinese instrument six quarter BB flat instrument is found which offers good build quality and good intonation - but not quite the classic Holton resonance...
Very soon, we will know whether the Miraphone version of the 345 bell resonates as nicely as a vintage American 345 bell, as some are headed this way and are going to be used as replacements for destroyed bells on 345 tubas. The ones being sent feature a "French" rim (like American instruments), and no nickel kranz. The person purchasing most of them is a superb player, owns some spectacular Holton and York six-quarter BB flats, and should be able to be a good judge re. the Miraphone bells.

[the elephant]

I really like the BBb Cerveny 601 and the BBb Alexander 164 but have never had the luck of running across one that I would want to take on stage to play with/against my colleagues. If I had found such a bird, I would have switched back to BBb with no regrets.

Unlike most CC players, at my peak, I could sightread much better on the BBb tuba than I have ever been able to do on the CC tuba. I suffer from dyslexia and have always had issues with reading, but it was much less pronounced on BBb tubas. I have never felt I could sightread as well when playing CC or F tubas. Of course, now I can't play BBb tubas at all. (I have tooted on a few BBb tubas while teaching, but it has been 34 years since I read any music while playing a BBb tuba.)

I owned one of Ev Gilmore's BBb Alexander 163s that was so much more in tune than my 163 CC that I nearly switched back to BBb in 1995. However, I ended up selling that horn to a student because I needed the funds.

I wonder how reversing that decision might have affected my career… hmm…

[bloke]

One day, this big thing well probably find its way to Yazoo City. It's a walk in the park compared to a 601. Come on. You know I'm lazy.

[bloke]

oh yeah...and finish this rig, and show after pics...

[the elephant]

Okay, important things happened to further the progress of this project.

• I have a new slide crook that will improve EVERYTHING.
• I have finally fitted the Yamaha union halves to their mount points.
• I have collected all the parts needed to build my lever system.

Here is a laughably amateurish video of me trying to explain all this. It sucks, but hey, you get what you pay for. My photography rocks, but my videography sucks. Try not to laugh at my mad skills as "Quentin Tubantino"…

[peteedwards]

spank that kitty, birthday boy!

[tofu]

Must be a mob involved Union shop and Ginger is one of the payed show/no work guys.
Is Ginger a Calico? I had a Calico as a kid. Followed me home as a small child one day and picked us as her people - she lived to 22. Wonderful cat - a real character. I vote all future videos have a Ginger segment.

Wait till you turn 65! It actually didn’t hit me until I got a notice from the government that if I didn’t register on their site for medicare by a deadline and then applied later there would be a penalty imposed even if I wasn’t applying for medicare coverage. I registered literally with a day to spare. Still haven’t applied for Social Security - don’t know if there is a deadline other than after 70 your benefits stop increasing. I plan to wait till 70, but at the rate things are going in Washington I'm beginning to wonder if it will still be around in a couple years or if they’ll figure out a way to confiscate most of it.

Age to some degree is a state of mind in many ways. My aunt when she turned 105 (still walking on her own without assistance and still a sharp mind) I bought her an IPod loaded with her favorite music (big band) and a boombox speaker thing you dropped it in. Less than a couple hours later the director of the retirement home calls me (I was her legal guardian) and tells me I need to come talk to her to turn it down as people are complaining and when he asked her she told him to mind his own business. So I drive over and tell her:

Aunt Dorothy you gotta keep the volume down.
“Why?”
People are complaining about the noise level.
“who?”
People at the end of the hall.
“They’re a bunch of old people”
They’re a bunch of old people?
“yes”
You’ve got 17 years on the oldest one down there! What do you consider old?
“Not me”
You’re not old at 105?
“No - you’re only as old as you act and they act like a bunch of old people!”

I burst out laughing - she was very funny. Lived to 107 going in her sleep. Born the day after the Titanic sank in 1912 & passing in 2019.

[the elephant]

I think I would have liked your aunt!

Ginger is what is called a "caliby" (calico tabby).