Characteristic Tone

[Stryk]

Listening to many posted recordings from younger than me "good players" has made me wonder if the concept of an acceptable characteristic tone has changed in the last couple decades. It "used to be" a robust rounded sound without too much edge at all. Now it seems, if the posts I hear are characteristic, VERY edgy, almost to the point of being obnoxious in my opinion. So, is it just my ears, of has what is acceptable changed?

[Mary Ann]

I would put recording technology in the mix....what equipment are these younger players recording on, and how does it compare to older recordings' equipment?

[Rick Denney]

While I doubt this is relevant to what you are hearing, it is true that the sound up close may not be the most effective sound out front. The sound up close may be a bit obnoxious without the mixing effect of the room, but without that obnoxiousness, may not have the energy needed to penetrate the room.

It is certainly true that a microphone that is 1-2 feet from the bell of my Hirsbrunner will cause gnashing of teeth, but from six feet (and to one side) it sounds far better. The Holton from 1-2 feet sounds round and robust, but with a hint of woof. In a live space, it fills the room with omnipresent sound, like a good subwoofer. In a dead space, particularly one made dead by having a lot of curtain traps instead of a shell, it might not escape the stage. There, the Hirsbrunner, even if a bit direct up close, gets out and acquires roundness. But you won't hear that roundness up close. (All statements constrained by the scope of my abilities, of course, but I suspect the same effects scale up to those who have a much larger scope.)

But I'm sure that what you are hearing is the trumpetization of tuba playing. The days when the tuba player's best friend was the stage manager, with whom he drank beer backstage (along with the bass trombone player) while the violinists were at the high-end restaurant being toasted by the rich old ladies of the Junior League, may be long gone. A trip to the Elephant Room at an Army workshop provides the evidence for my assertions--I hear a LOT of higher, faster, louder showing off there, clearly not for the sake of determining an instrument's range, scale, agility, and dynamic potential.

Rick "distinguishing musical decisions from limits on ability" Denney

[bloke]

I view the full spectrum of any types of CONTROLLED tuba resonances as having their place.

As just one type of example (very far to one end of the spectrum), I'm one who does NOT judge the (typically: African American) "sousaphone section contests" type of resonance to be "bad"...

- It is controlled.
- The intonation matches.

...and I've been required to produce that type of resonance - in particular - when working outdoors (or in large barn-like or arena-like areas) with African-American NOLA-style brass bands.

I'm also prepared to produce resonance characteristics even to the other end of the spectrum - beyond that which Terry judges as most pleasing.

They pays their money...They takes their choices.

[russiantuba]

I do like edge as an effect. Tim Buzbee does an awesome job at this. I studied with people who were of the robust sound though able to edge school, such as a LeBlanc/Bishop/Jacobs student.

However, I guess something that seems acceptable now days that you have brought up is making the low range tighter and a different color, namely on the big horn, especially those on 6/4 tubas.

[Stryk]

I view the full spectrum of any types of CONTROLLED tuba resonances as having their place.

Controlled and in tune, yes. What I am talking about is what I call the "splat and blat" school of music. Certain pieces of music NEED edge and lots of it, but edge is not for every piece as I have been hearing lately. It seems some folks, even those in some symphony orchestras, can't play a low E without making it bark. Just personal preferences, I guess. I prefer not to sound like a plastic air horn, but I don't play in one of those there fancy orchestras, either.

[Stryk]

Huge sound, spot on pitch, no “blat and splat”. This is what I call a characteristic tuba tone. I don’t hear it much these days from many prolific posters.

https://www.facebook.com/Kontrabasstub ... =e&extid=0

[matt g]

This is a weird rant.

There are lots of great examples of tuba playing in USA orchestras. Lots!

I also hear lots of fine playing with great sound from younger people on Instagram and YouTube.

If anything, the access to recordings in the 20th century completely changed the soundscape of tuba playing today.

Listening to older recordings, you’d hear very different approaches to tuba playing. With the rise of groups like the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, playing styles in this country seemed to start to converge both in terms of concept and equipment used.

Taking the reduction of “blatt” even further, there are numerous recordings of the NYPO where Warren Deck has possibly one of the most edge-free and core-only sounds ever put to tape. He sounded like that live also. Unreal.

The tradition is carried on by top players today. In live settings, people like Chris Olka and Mike Roylance sound fantastic with nothing unpleasant about their sound.

Social media and such has increased the access to hearing players of all ranges. When I had chops and time, I burned through a ton on cassettes recording myself to improve. Sometimes it would be a recording of some excerpt at the limit of good taste just to build the underlying skills. Nowadays younger players simply record this with their phones and post it online as a practice log. It’s not necessarily polished for consumption. I don’t hold that against them.

I’m of the position that the average skill set of the orchestral tuba player continues to climb in the USA and likely elsewhere. While many of the players of the past were fine musicians, current players have risen to the challenge to exceed those standards with regards to pitch, sound, and musicality. Note that this is on average, anomalies exist across all time periods.

[Stryk]

This is a weird rant.

Not a rant - an observation.

[donn]

Listening to many posted recordings from younger than me "good players" has made me wonder if the concept of an acceptable characteristic tone has changed in the last couple decades. It "used to be" a robust rounded sound without too much edge at all. Now it seems, if the posts I hear are characteristic, VERY edgy, almost to the point of being obnoxious in my opinion. So, is it just my ears, of has what is acceptable changed?

... and from there, the discussion went on to focus on symphonic orchestras. I wouldn't know about that (you say there's tubas in symphonic orchestras? Weird, I didn't think Beethoven knew about tubas ...) but what it seems to me I hear in commercial work is someone squeezing every bit of characteristic tone out of the instrument, in a way that makes for a great bass line.

[Stryk]

I hear in commercial work is someone squeezing every bit of characteristic tone out of the instrument, in a way that makes for a great bass line.

Guess it's just me then.....

[bloke]

Even if we don’t like your new post, some of us like your new fence.

[GC]

When I want to listen to my concept of the perfect characteristic tone, I listen to Jim Self.

[Stryk]

Even if we don’t like your new post, some of us like your new fence.

Guaranteed to keep bagpipers out!

[Mary Ann]

Just reminds me of the concert I went to more than a decade ago with Empire Brass and the Tucson Symphony. They finished with S&S with both groups. The TSO tuba player, Mike Sherline (since retired) played a 2155. You could hear him loud and clear -- and mellow tuba sound -- over ALL of them. Fantastic. I don't know how much of that was the instrument's being able to make that sound and how much of it was his ability to make that sound. I took a couple lessons from him when I started and he helped me a lot.
When Empire Brass was playing by themselves....I could not even hear the tuba; it was lost with the sound going up. If he had had a bell front it would have worked better in that venue. It must have been stage position for the difference in what I could hear.

[Doc]

Listening to many posted recordings from younger than me "good players" has made me wonder if the concept of an acceptable characteristic tone has changed in the last couple decades. It "used to be" a robust rounded sound without too much edge at all. Now it seems, if the posts I hear are characteristic, VERY edgy, almost to the point of being obnoxious in my opinion. So, is it just my ears, of has what is acceptable changed?

I understand what you are describing. My thought is that this phenomenon can be partially attributed to honking on the biggest cannons one can buy (arms race has changed ideas/approaches/creating regarding sound production). Low E's certainly ought not to have a razor's edge as a matter of course (unless an appropriate effect). Recording technology and playback technology are likely factors as well. (I always try to offer the disclaimer when I post a recording made on the iPhone.) And, like the general dumbing down of the ensuing generations in other academic areas, music is not unaffected. The acceptable standard for good sound might be less/different for some players.

Is that because players don't want to work hard to produce a more pleasing sound? Is it because it's "good enough?" Is it because they actually think it sounds good? Is it how we perceive it because of digital (instead of analog) recording equipment that can sometimes produce a less-warm/more-brittle sound? Or is it some combination thereof? Or none of the above? Hard to say definitively, but I can tell you that you aren't the only one who hears that edgy sound sometimes.

[Dan Tuba]

From my experience, I have definitely noticed that "volume" has increased when playing/performing with other brass players. I have noticed that other brass players seem to really appreciate a tuba sound that wraps around the ensemble like a big warm hug (Lots of bass). I have also noticed that other brass players really like a tuba sound that can slice right through the texture of the ensemble. Having the ability to create both sides of this spectrum, and everything in between seems to be other brass players expectations of the tuba player (s). I have to practice a lot to be able to meet their expectations, and often times fall short. However, I give it my best

[matt g]

From my experience, I have definitely noticed that "volume" has increased when playing/performing with other brass players. I have noticed that other brass players seem to really appreciate a tuba sound that wraps around the ensemble like a big warm hug (Lots of bass). I have also noticed that other brass players really like a tuba sound that can slice right through the texture of the ensemble. Having the ability to create both sides of this spectrum, and everything in between seems to be other brass players expectations of the tuba player (s). I have to practice a lot to be able to meet their expectations, and often times fall short. However, I give it my best

In my own experience, having this versatility in regards to timbre is somewhat limited with the current trends in equipment. Even my smaller horn won’t get the “zing” that I believe you are referencing without some work.

The best horns, imo, that span this well are the 186/188 and MW 25/32 or 2145/2155 (or the current variants thereof) and even the older style 2341 Kings.

To play with a warm sound I had to have a more open approach with slower air. The ring of edge would show up until I hit the throttle. 6/4 horns really don’t do this well until at the limit or with lots of extra tubing (low register) involved. For that reason, good players (and there are plenty of young people out there doing this), strive for even color of sound in the area around the open fundamental. For instance, making low E and open fundamental C sounding like the same horn takes a lot of work. Players that do this are usually the ones that can make those excerpts (like Fountains that is over-requested) sound proper.

[Dan Tuba]

Have you ever noticed/observed/heard a player who sounds very colorful, powerful while performing individually, or with a low brass section? However, when they are performing the same excerpts with the orchestra, their sound isn't present in the texture?

Or have you heard recordings where the Tuba sound is huge, colorful, powerful? However, when you hear the same player with the same ensemble in a live setting, their sound isn't present in the texture?

I am sure that there are plenty of variables?

[Billy M.]

To play with a warm sound I had to have a more open approach with slower air. The ring of edge would show up until I hit the throttle. 6/4 horns really don’t do this well until at the limit or with lots of extra tubing (low register) involved. For that reason, good players (and there are plenty of young people out there doing this), strive for even color of sound in the area around the open fundamental. For instance, making low E and open fundamental C sounding like the same horn takes a lot of work. Players that do this are usually the ones that can make those excerpts (like Fountains that is over-requested) sound proper.

To quote a famous technician in the Jersey area about players coming in that don't understand this technique and quality, to the tune of the vamp: "I can't... play low... I can't ... play low..."

And you're right, the more valves you add, the more difficult to keep the same quality of sound and timbre.