I just lent my MW-20 to a talented young lady who has been patiently waiting for a home tube from the school for the last two years. She auditioned into a top regional band and does not have an instrument to participate with... last year she was able to borrow a Yamaha 103 from the middle school because the high school didn't have any home tubas left. Lack of an instrument at home means.. she can't participate in private lessons... she has to do all of her practicing after school in the band room before or after school.. etc So she is at an immediate disadvantage compared to others who either were allocated a home tube or who have families who can and want to purchase one. The high school has a PO in process for several St. Petes but who knows how long that will actually take before instruments actually arrive.
I know I was in the same boat when I was in high school... our home tubas were a motley mix of fiberglass sousaphones. Our tubas in school were King 1140 Convertibles.. that were used as marching and concert instruments. I never practiced at home because the sousaphone was just in such bad shape.. My family couldn't afford lessons, so the lack of a home tuba really didn't hamper me there. That is why when my son got into his first honor band, and the school didn't have an instrument, I found him a really well priced but exceptionally good playing Miraphone 186... I feel very fortunate that I was able to do that... but even in a good suburban school district how many families really have several thousand extra around to throw at a tuba???
So what is the solution???... higher taxes to fund more instruments (along with maintenance and repairs)? I know the ITEA tuba lending program isn't exactly flush with instruments... I've heard of enterprising students finding closet tubas in churches or community bands, but those are really one offs.
A family can get a really good used student trumpet or trombone for cheap...and if the kid needs to move up to a better instrument there are plenty of rental options.. Not so much for tubas... On the other hand the school does provide instruments for use in school...
I don't know.. It seems that there should be a better way... Just ranting a bit... Our school band program is in general top notch... however the lack of quality instruments at home when there is a full stable of Miraphone 186's at school frustrates me..
Chellenges for less affluent students
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gocsick
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Chellenges for less affluent students
As amateur as they come...I know just enough to be dangerous.
Meinl-Weston 20
Holton Medium Eb 3+1
Holton Collegiate Sousas in Eb and BBb
Conn 20J
and whole bunch of other "Stuff"
Meinl-Weston 20
Holton Medium Eb 3+1
Holton Collegiate Sousas in Eb and BBb
Conn 20J
and whole bunch of other "Stuff"
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russiantuba
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
@gocsick I can tell you what the tubists at the other school in the district (same district a big 5 east coast orchestral tubist/soloist attended). It is a bit of a different culture on the other side but this could help others.
(Concert season at the two schools is year round and marching is extra curricular). At the high school when marching season is over, some of the tubists have taken sousaphones home to practice. Most of the students live in the music wing, spending their lunches there to practice, and also use their academic prep periods to come down and practice, and go after school. Lessons are during the day, but there have been a couple who signed up for lessons outside before I was there who just take the Miraphone 186s home for the lessons and bring it back the next day. For the summer, the directors have let anyone in lessons or extra musical events take tubas home for the summer.
The high school is a construction mess, with them getting a new band hall, so I had some tuba students without horns. No practice rooms at all for the first month and a half, and one bought a Conn 4J BBb one of my college students was selling (not wanting them to spend more for if/when this student majors in music).
I have fought this issue at the middle schools, where the students don't have instruments to take home at all (again, a weird district where doing band, orchestra, or choir is required from grades 6-8 for every student).
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Even if Music and Arts or other companies would have a good 4/4 sized BBb tuba on the rental program, a bigger issue I personally had growing up was getting a tuba home (I had an old Miraphone 186BBb at home from the 1960s or 1970s no one was using growing up, since we had plenty of tubas and not many tubists). Something I have done is look for really cheap tubas (even the 3 valve ones) for serious students that have this issue who are willing to spend similar amounts to a good used trumpet or trombone.
(Concert season at the two schools is year round and marching is extra curricular). At the high school when marching season is over, some of the tubists have taken sousaphones home to practice. Most of the students live in the music wing, spending their lunches there to practice, and also use their academic prep periods to come down and practice, and go after school. Lessons are during the day, but there have been a couple who signed up for lessons outside before I was there who just take the Miraphone 186s home for the lessons and bring it back the next day. For the summer, the directors have let anyone in lessons or extra musical events take tubas home for the summer.
The high school is a construction mess, with them getting a new band hall, so I had some tuba students without horns. No practice rooms at all for the first month and a half, and one bought a Conn 4J BBb one of my college students was selling (not wanting them to spend more for if/when this student majors in music).
I have fought this issue at the middle schools, where the students don't have instruments to take home at all (again, a weird district where doing band, orchestra, or choir is required from grades 6-8 for every student).
-----
Even if Music and Arts or other companies would have a good 4/4 sized BBb tuba on the rental program, a bigger issue I personally had growing up was getting a tuba home (I had an old Miraphone 186BBb at home from the 1960s or 1970s no one was using growing up, since we had plenty of tubas and not many tubists). Something I have done is look for really cheap tubas (even the 3 valve ones) for serious students that have this issue who are willing to spend similar amounts to a good used trumpet or trombone.
Dr. James M. Green
Lecturer in Music--Ohio Northern University
Adjunct Professor of Music--Ohio Christian University
Gronitz PF 125
Miraphone 1291CC
Miraphone Performing Artist
www.russiantuba.com
Lecturer in Music--Ohio Northern University
Adjunct Professor of Music--Ohio Christian University
Gronitz PF 125
Miraphone 1291CC
Miraphone Performing Artist
www.russiantuba.com
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DonO.
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
This problem is nothing new. The situation was the same when i was a student in the 70’s. People say well, horns were cheaper then; true, but people didn’t make as much money, either!
I knew i wanted my own horn eventually, but I asked my college if they had a tuba I could borrow in the meantime. They said yes. It turned out to be a Conn 24J in rough shape- not the sort of thing you want to major with! Getting a tuba of my own was a huge priority, but money was a problem. I put my father on the job. He was a traveling sales representative, and he visited every music store in every town he went to over 3 states. He finally found me a used Meinl Weston 25 for $1200 (this was 1974). He bought the MW and I paid him back over the next 3 years with money i earned at a summer job (counselor at a music camp).
I was lucky. Very lucky.
Honestly, I feel very badly for college level tuba students these days. Although, to be fair, there are big universities with Miraphone 186s to lend instead of dented up Conns. But I guarantee every one of those students wants their own. And although i believe the cost of tubas has just about kept pace with inflation, the other costs of a college education have far exceeded it. That makes the bucks harder to come by.
The situation is further exacerbated by college professors who insist their students must switch to CC. Whats a kid to do if their parents already bought them a “good” BBb in high school so they could take lessons? I have been a BBb player all my life. I have always maintained that’s perfectly fine if one is majoring in music education. Want to be a band director, you say? You are unlikely to encounter many CC tubas in that environment. But unfortunately, some parents end up saying “You need ANOTHER tuba?”
It’s really no surprise that inexpensive Chinese (NOT
Eastman! They don’t qualify as “cheap” anymore) are so popular. A college student (or their parents) look at Miraphones, Meinl Westons, B & S, etc. horns going for $10,000 plus, then they look at Jinbao or similar horns with the same design going for $3000 or less. They might be aware that the less expensive horn is not going to take care of their needs in the long run, but financially they may have no alternative.
To reiterate, i feel badly for them. College tuba students have chosen a tough row to hoe.
I knew i wanted my own horn eventually, but I asked my college if they had a tuba I could borrow in the meantime. They said yes. It turned out to be a Conn 24J in rough shape- not the sort of thing you want to major with! Getting a tuba of my own was a huge priority, but money was a problem. I put my father on the job. He was a traveling sales representative, and he visited every music store in every town he went to over 3 states. He finally found me a used Meinl Weston 25 for $1200 (this was 1974). He bought the MW and I paid him back over the next 3 years with money i earned at a summer job (counselor at a music camp).
I was lucky. Very lucky.
Honestly, I feel very badly for college level tuba students these days. Although, to be fair, there are big universities with Miraphone 186s to lend instead of dented up Conns. But I guarantee every one of those students wants their own. And although i believe the cost of tubas has just about kept pace with inflation, the other costs of a college education have far exceeded it. That makes the bucks harder to come by.
The situation is further exacerbated by college professors who insist their students must switch to CC. Whats a kid to do if their parents already bought them a “good” BBb in high school so they could take lessons? I have been a BBb player all my life. I have always maintained that’s perfectly fine if one is majoring in music education. Want to be a band director, you say? You are unlikely to encounter many CC tubas in that environment. But unfortunately, some parents end up saying “You need ANOTHER tuba?”
It’s really no surprise that inexpensive Chinese (NOT
Eastman! They don’t qualify as “cheap” anymore) are so popular. A college student (or their parents) look at Miraphones, Meinl Westons, B & S, etc. horns going for $10,000 plus, then they look at Jinbao or similar horns with the same design going for $3000 or less. They might be aware that the less expensive horn is not going to take care of their needs in the long run, but financially they may have no alternative.
To reiterate, i feel badly for them. College tuba students have chosen a tough row to hoe.
King 2341 “new style”
Kanstul 902-3B
Conn Helleberg Standard 120
Kanstul 902-3B
Conn Helleberg Standard 120
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bloke
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
I suspect that you and probably a whole bunch of other people aren't going to like this comment, because it's going to sound like the typical "back in my day we walked five miles barefoot in the snow" type of stuff. Further, I suspect the reflex response is going to be that "today, things just can't be done like they were back then" to to which my response would be, "Let's list the reasons for that".
My same friend that I mentioned over and over again who never had any private instruction, only had access to one Conn fiberglass model 36k sousaphone to play everything indoors and outdoors, took that thing home from school every night on his shoulder, and basically auditioned into *Pershing's Own in the 12th grade using that instrument -auditioning to be in any sort of Army Band during the Vietnam War). He lived about two and a half miles from the school. Sometimes he'd ride his bike and sometimes he'd walk.
Just to review a little bit more, his mother was a railroad widow, their house probably wasn't quite a thousand square feet and featured a gravel driveway. He had a newspaper route that required him to get up at 4:30 in the morning. Otherwise he wouldn't have had any spending money, though he probably gave most of that money to his mother.
_______________
*They parked him in a base band about three hours from his home for most of a year, until someone who was known to be retiring retired, and then they very strongly suggested that he audition for that spot in D.C.
His first tuba lessons (or any music lessons ever) were at that Navy School of Music that everyone's required to go through after basic training.
Don't misconstrue my comments or opinions - on how things have changed, and how expectations of young people have changed - with me also believing that what you did for this young student was a very nice thing to do - and I hope they appreciate it, take advantage of what you've done for them, and take good care of your instrument while in their care.
Just one other thing...
Right now, I'm going through upwards of a dozen tubas which are the property of the Memphis and Shelby County Schools and are assigned to (without debate) the most desirable middle school in the system, whereby people stand in line trying to get into it - if there is space available. The students are a mixture of lower income family students who live around the school, higher income family students who live a few blocks north of the school, and probably about 50% bused-in students. Those tubas are all torn up and haven't been able to be used in years. Included in them are a couple of Miraphone 186 tubas. This school is special, as this band director is completely in charge of his own money and has a lot of it furnished to him by the system, and is having me put all these back into service. I don't believe any of the past band directors tore up these instruments themselves, and I suspect that - had they had attempted to discipline students who tore them up - they would have been fired and maybe even prosecuted...so if we're going to discuss differences between now and 60 years ago, I've outlined a few of them.
By the way, when my friend was finished with the fiberglass 36K at the end of the 12th grade, it was still in new condition. Incidentally, his older brother - who of course had to share a room with him in the tiny house - was the salutatorian of his class.
I totally agree that giving young people resources and encouragement is really important, but I believe it's just important to make certain that they understand that they're supposed to live up to certain expectations, and that achieving beyond those expectations are their own rewards. Booker T Jones lived across town from us and grew up about the same time we did. I'm thinking of what he accomplished with what he was furnished. Tuba-wise though, his school (named after the famous black American after whom Booker T himself was named) actually had better instruments than ours did; they had Besson sousaphones.
My same friend that I mentioned over and over again who never had any private instruction, only had access to one Conn fiberglass model 36k sousaphone to play everything indoors and outdoors, took that thing home from school every night on his shoulder, and basically auditioned into *Pershing's Own in the 12th grade using that instrument -auditioning to be in any sort of Army Band during the Vietnam War). He lived about two and a half miles from the school. Sometimes he'd ride his bike and sometimes he'd walk.
Just to review a little bit more, his mother was a railroad widow, their house probably wasn't quite a thousand square feet and featured a gravel driveway. He had a newspaper route that required him to get up at 4:30 in the morning. Otherwise he wouldn't have had any spending money, though he probably gave most of that money to his mother.
_______________
*They parked him in a base band about three hours from his home for most of a year, until someone who was known to be retiring retired, and then they very strongly suggested that he audition for that spot in D.C.
His first tuba lessons (or any music lessons ever) were at that Navy School of Music that everyone's required to go through after basic training.
Don't misconstrue my comments or opinions - on how things have changed, and how expectations of young people have changed - with me also believing that what you did for this young student was a very nice thing to do - and I hope they appreciate it, take advantage of what you've done for them, and take good care of your instrument while in their care.
Just one other thing...
Right now, I'm going through upwards of a dozen tubas which are the property of the Memphis and Shelby County Schools and are assigned to (without debate) the most desirable middle school in the system, whereby people stand in line trying to get into it - if there is space available. The students are a mixture of lower income family students who live around the school, higher income family students who live a few blocks north of the school, and probably about 50% bused-in students. Those tubas are all torn up and haven't been able to be used in years. Included in them are a couple of Miraphone 186 tubas. This school is special, as this band director is completely in charge of his own money and has a lot of it furnished to him by the system, and is having me put all these back into service. I don't believe any of the past band directors tore up these instruments themselves, and I suspect that - had they had attempted to discipline students who tore them up - they would have been fired and maybe even prosecuted...so if we're going to discuss differences between now and 60 years ago, I've outlined a few of them.
By the way, when my friend was finished with the fiberglass 36K at the end of the 12th grade, it was still in new condition. Incidentally, his older brother - who of course had to share a room with him in the tiny house - was the salutatorian of his class.
I totally agree that giving young people resources and encouragement is really important, but I believe it's just important to make certain that they understand that they're supposed to live up to certain expectations, and that achieving beyond those expectations are their own rewards. Booker T Jones lived across town from us and grew up about the same time we did. I'm thinking of what he accomplished with what he was furnished. Tuba-wise though, his school (named after the famous black American after whom Booker T himself was named) actually had better instruments than ours did; they had Besson sousaphones.
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gocsick
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
I'm more just wondering about priorities..... There was plenty of money for all new silver sousaphones, Trombones, baritones, and trumpets for the marching bands performance instruments... because as usual the sight of instruments that are not as nice as the visiting bands is completely unacceptable to the school board..
Again this is a rant... and I 100% realize it is covering from a place of privilege.. There are so many schools out there struggling for decent tubas to use in school.. Hell there are a lot of schools that struggle to feed their students. I disagree with the band director about a lot of things but he really is doing his best.. I didn't want it to sound like I am blaming him..
Again this is a rant... and I 100% realize it is covering from a place of privilege.. There are so many schools out there struggling for decent tubas to use in school.. Hell there are a lot of schools that struggle to feed their students. I disagree with the band director about a lot of things but he really is doing his best.. I didn't want it to sound like I am blaming him..
As amateur as they come...I know just enough to be dangerous.
Meinl-Weston 20
Holton Medium Eb 3+1
Holton Collegiate Sousas in Eb and BBb
Conn 20J
and whole bunch of other "Stuff"
Meinl-Weston 20
Holton Medium Eb 3+1
Holton Collegiate Sousas in Eb and BBb
Conn 20J
and whole bunch of other "Stuff"
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bloke
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
We had a mixture of fiberglass sousaphones and various configurations of tubas in the All-State bands back in the 1970s.
I don't think the All-State players who showed up with fiberglass sousaphones were ashamed, but I guess they would be today because of this, that, and the other (band directors and private lesson teachers making faces and negative comments?) Somehow I ended up sitting in the front of the section in Tennessee's All-State band in the 12th grade (probably because a bunch of better players had graduated the previous year). I had a school-owned three valve King 1240 (I stripped off all the lacquer from the detachable upright bell, straightened out the creases with a rolling pin and a big cooking spoon, shined up the bell with Brasso, cleaned off the Brasso with lacquer thinner, and brushed a coat of clear lacquer on it that I bought at the hardware store), but I really should have brought one of the Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphones to play in the All-State band, because - even though I had swapped the pistons out for the less-worn pistons in the King brass sousaphone (up on a high shelf), the 1240's valve casings were worn worse than the pistons, and those better pistons still rattled in the casings. We had just received one of those little squeak box Miraphone model 1270 tubas at our school that year. I did notice that it was easier to play, but - being a 3/4 size squeak box - it just didn't produce any sound.
I don't think the All-State players who showed up with fiberglass sousaphones were ashamed, but I guess they would be today because of this, that, and the other (band directors and private lesson teachers making faces and negative comments?) Somehow I ended up sitting in the front of the section in Tennessee's All-State band in the 12th grade (probably because a bunch of better players had graduated the previous year). I had a school-owned three valve King 1240 (I stripped off all the lacquer from the detachable upright bell, straightened out the creases with a rolling pin and a big cooking spoon, shined up the bell with Brasso, cleaned off the Brasso with lacquer thinner, and brushed a coat of clear lacquer on it that I bought at the hardware store), but I really should have brought one of the Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphones to play in the All-State band, because - even though I had swapped the pistons out for the less-worn pistons in the King brass sousaphone (up on a high shelf), the 1240's valve casings were worn worse than the pistons, and those better pistons still rattled in the casings. We had just received one of those little squeak box Miraphone model 1270 tubas at our school that year. I did notice that it was easier to play, but - being a 3/4 size squeak box - it just didn't produce any sound.
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2nd tenor
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Re: Challenges for less affluent students
As a youth I didn’t have my own Tuba but one was supplied to me by the education system, it was a three valve instrument that was both aged and in poor condition. Whilst possibly not the best or most able student I was at least as good a youth as anyone could reasonably hope for and the instrument was returned in a bit better condition than I receive it in - I did what I could. I carried the instrument from home to school (and back), using public buses for some of the journey and walking the rest.
At the time the tuba (Eb with three valves) seemed heavy to me, I was probably borderline strong enough and the Bandmaster had enough sense to not give big instruments to weaker kids. I read here about instruments getting damaged but I don’t blame the kids first but rather the Bandmasters. What are they doing letting good instruments out of their sight without really understanding what care those instruments are going to receive? There’s something wrong with the system at such schools and I’d allocate a share of the financial responsibility to the Bandmaster’s personal pocket; that’d soon get some accountability in place and would soon get youths (via organisational change) using simple light instruments that they could more easily move without damage too!
Here in the UK music education in schools is in a poor state but amateur music groups do teach the young to play and do provide instruments to them. It’s a long standing cultural model in UK Brass Bands and I’d say a good way forward for other places too.
I applaud the OP on letting a student use one of his instruments and hope that it ends well. It is, imho, a real shame that something like a YBB103 (light, compact, BBb, three valve) is not considered adequate for student use, and I would strongly admonish educationalists for that state of affairs. Put the blame where it belongs (on the educators first) and remember that there’s some fantastic music that can be created by talented players on simple instruments.
At the time the tuba (Eb with three valves) seemed heavy to me, I was probably borderline strong enough and the Bandmaster had enough sense to not give big instruments to weaker kids. I read here about instruments getting damaged but I don’t blame the kids first but rather the Bandmasters. What are they doing letting good instruments out of their sight without really understanding what care those instruments are going to receive? There’s something wrong with the system at such schools and I’d allocate a share of the financial responsibility to the Bandmaster’s personal pocket; that’d soon get some accountability in place and would soon get youths (via organisational change) using simple light instruments that they could more easily move without damage too!
Here in the UK music education in schools is in a poor state but amateur music groups do teach the young to play and do provide instruments to them. It’s a long standing cultural model in UK Brass Bands and I’d say a good way forward for other places too.
I applaud the OP on letting a student use one of his instruments and hope that it ends well. It is, imho, a real shame that something like a YBB103 (light, compact, BBb, three valve) is not considered adequate for student use, and I would strongly admonish educationalists for that state of affairs. Put the blame where it belongs (on the educators first) and remember that there’s some fantastic music that can be created by talented players on simple instruments.
Re: Challenges for less affluent students
In the Netherlands it is similar, instruments are provided by the amateur bands. The primary school in our small village does have music lessons and a band now, but it is supported by the local band and we provide the instruments2nd tenor wrote: Sat Nov 08, 2025 12:54 pm Here in the UK music education in schools is in a poor state but amateur music groups do teach the young to play and do provide instruments to them. It’s a long standing cultural model in UK Brass Bands and I’d say a good way forward for other places too.
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bloke
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
I never thought my Conn 36K fiberglass sousaphone was inadequate (grades 7-12, with the other alternatives being a super-leaky-3-valves King 1240, and a sent-to-the-school-halfway-through-my-12th-grade-year Miraphone model 1270 pea-shooter squeak-box gruntophone).
- not torn up (as we didn't behave as do many young scholars do today...no leaks, no bent water keys, no loose neck-fittings (due to actually using the tension screw), both tuning bits in place, etc.
- fully chromatic (as the false tones are so very accessible and resonant).
- out-of-tune - here-and-there, due to only 3-valves and a saggy 2nd space C (but think of all of the epic intonation problems encountered with really expensive "professional-grade" modern-day tubas).
- large bore (.734"...nearly the same bore size as most of the tubas the modern-day professional American players choose) and with (basically) a 5/4-size body
particularly considering...
- paid for by people other than myself - an 11-17-year-old (with my parents only chipping in their share of property and sales taxes) - many of whom struggled to pay those taxes
- not torn up (as we didn't behave as do many young scholars do today...no leaks, no bent water keys, no loose neck-fittings (due to actually using the tension screw), both tuning bits in place, etc.
- fully chromatic (as the false tones are so very accessible and resonant).
- out-of-tune - here-and-there, due to only 3-valves and a saggy 2nd space C (but think of all of the epic intonation problems encountered with really expensive "professional-grade" modern-day tubas).
- large bore (.734"...nearly the same bore size as most of the tubas the modern-day professional American players choose) and with (basically) a 5/4-size body
particularly considering...
- paid for by people other than myself - an 11-17-year-old (with my parents only chipping in their share of property and sales taxes) - many of whom struggled to pay those taxes
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catgrowlB
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
I was the only one 'serious' enough to have parents buy beat up tubas for me in middle/high school. My first tuba my parents bought was a very large silver Holton 350 bell front BBb. Still have it.
I grew up in a working class / middle class home. I'm dirt poor/broke now. But me and the other tuba players in middle and high school all came from working class or middle class homes. Noone else was serious enough to take a tuba home to practice, except me.
My high school had nice refurbished silver King sousas that we used for marching band and concert band. The only tuba the school had was one of those ugly Besson bell front BBb tubas that played and sounded about as well as the King sousas. Usually one of the tuba players would use it during concert season, everyone else on the King sousas. I would sometimes bring one of my tubas for concert season. But those King sousas (2 were HN White era, the other 3 were late Seeburg/early UMI era) could be as great in the auditorium as on the field
I grew up in a working class / middle class home. I'm dirt poor/broke now. But me and the other tuba players in middle and high school all came from working class or middle class homes. Noone else was serious enough to take a tuba home to practice, except me.
My high school had nice refurbished silver King sousas that we used for marching band and concert band. The only tuba the school had was one of those ugly Besson bell front BBb tubas that played and sounded about as well as the King sousas. Usually one of the tuba players would use it during concert season, everyone else on the King sousas. I would sometimes bring one of my tubas for concert season. But those King sousas (2 were HN White era, the other 3 were late Seeburg/early UMI era) could be as great in the auditorium as on the field
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bloke
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
The bell-front Bessons are ugly, but I've gained more respect for them (intonation/resonance/LOUD !!!!). SOMEDAY (??) I'll convert this 3V comp to a 4V comp (yes, I have the parts). A while back, I got a cut-off rough (??) EARLY Yamaha YBB-321 bell cheap (same exact profile as the 17 vintage Besson upright bells). I managed to get a genuine (not King) Besson male collar, trimmed the 321 bell up shorter (to fit the Besson tenon, soldered it up, and now I have BOTH bells for this Besson. I've used it on some outdoor jobs (stuck together and straightened out enough to use)...with the recording bell. It's front-heavy, but effective.catgrowlB wrote: Mon Nov 10, 2025 9:42 pm I was the only one 'serious' enough to have parents buy beat up tubas for me in middle/high school. My first tuba my parents bought was a very large silver Holton 350 bell front BBb. Still have it.
I grew up in a working class / middle class home. I'm dirt poor/broke now. But me and the other tuba players in middle and high school all came from working class or middle class homes. Noone else was serious enough to take a tuba home to practice, except me.
My high school had nice refurbished silver King sousas that we used for marching band and concert band. The only tuba the school had was one of those ugly Besson bell front BBb tubas that played and sounded about as well as the King sousas. Usually one of the tuba players would use it during concert season, everyone else on the King sousas. I would sometimes bring one of my tubas for concert season. But those King sousas (2 were HN White era, the other 3 were late Seeburg/early UMI era) could be as great in the auditorium as on the field
King sousas...the best there are, and (30 lb. H. N. White ones with good valves) better yet, obviously. Seeburg...about as good. today: weird/thin/but still the best...They sound more like fine concert tubas than any other make. Yeah (just like any others) the 1st and 3rd circuits are that too-long length, but they still come the closest to playing in tune. JP (better King knock-offs than Jupiter, and less costly than Jupiter) feature better valvesets than modern-day King...and almost (not quite as good) intonation as King...less than a handful of thous' of dollars w/case/shipping on a competitive school bid...and a bit thicker than the paper-thin current Kings.
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Three Valves
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
Are these the same people that mock others for having First World problems?bloke wrote: Sat Nov 08, 2025 11:10 am I suspect that you and probably a whole bunch of other people aren't going to like this comment….
Thought Criminal
Mack Brass Artiste
TU422L with TU25
1964 Conn 36k with CB Arnold Jacobs
Accent (By B&S) 952R with Bach12
The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column
Mack Brass Artiste
TU422L with TU25
1964 Conn 36k with CB Arnold Jacobs
Accent (By B&S) 952R with Bach12
The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column
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the elephant
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
I have only ever owned three new horns in the fifty years I have been playing tubas.
One was a lark, a Mack Brass 410 that was cheap enough to allow me to find out about the new breed of cheap, Chinese tubas. (For the most part, I was very impressed, too.) Once was a much better Chinese tuba, an excellent Eastman 836 that I picked after several hours of testing six of them. I was very impressed by this horn. The last one was my first tuba, a Yamaha YBB-641 that was a truly excellent tuba in just about every way. It was far better than the 641s they have been selling since they changed it in the (I guess) 1990s. It has been very mediocre since then, IMHO.
I was a poor kid, and I have been a poor adult, never really amounting to much financially. Never having had money, I have never really missed having it, until my health started taking a dump and I couldn't easily afford to fend off the Grim Reaper.
With all that preamble down, I have been the Principal in my orchestra for 33 years now, and won my audition against some folks with a LOT of very nice, slick gear, some even showing up in very nice parent-funded BMWs and the like. I arrived in my 1979 POS Ford Mustang with a giant dent in the side and only one of the four stereo speakers working. (You could listen to Jimi Hendrix's singing, or you could listen to his guitar. You could not have both in this car, heh, heh…) I arrived here in Jackson in that dilapidated death machine with a single CC tuba and no F tuba, and it was a school-owned tuba, at that.
I got a small loan from my Grandpa after I won the gig. I bought a single 4/4 CC tuba. I later sold it for another 4/4 CC tuba. A few years later, I was engaged by the orchestra to play the RVW concerto on a subscription series program, and I did not own an F tuba. I scraped together as much money as I could as fast as I could, and bought a truly mediocre instrument and then sat down to learn it and make do as best I could.
Now I have some stupendous instruments, but it took me many years to get where I am in this regard.
My point is that I had nothing when I started. Very serious people usually find a way to get what they need. Those who do not tend to make excuses about "being poor" or not having supportive parents. Sorry, I have little time to listen to that. I lived it for sixty years, and I have worked my butt off to get around my antagonistic mother, who used to forbid me to practice my horn, go to competitions, or even enroll in music classes at the community college where I took my first-ever tuba lessons.
While in a very prestigious music school, most of my fellow tuba players thought they were serious about being musicians; nevertheless, they were always rolling over due to a lack of money.
After high school, I worked full-time as a waiter and saved as much of my tips as I could, taking off from school for a year to do so, in order to buy that YBB-641 on my own dime at the age of 18. I was serious about stuff. I got what I needed, even if it was not top-shelf gear; then I worked very hard to get the most out of it.
I suffer financially today compared with my orchestra colleagues, most of whom are from very affluent families that supported them rather than trying to undermine them. They were handed $50,000 violins for their high school graduation gifts, along with nice, safe vehicles, and then they were sent to great schools. I had to serve in the military to get money for my great school.
I am not upset by these differences in life circumstances. I still have largely "made it" (to my way of thinking). I do not have time in my life to worry about this nonsense. I am too busy working toward my goals and succeeding to even think much about how easy some folks have had it in life. They were fortunate. I have to work for everything I have, though. I was even homeless for about half of 1989. I worked my way out of that situation and still got what I wanted out of life.
I saw what I wanted. I saw what I needed. I worked out a plan to succeed. Then I did it.
Some of my students have gotten pissed off at me for suggesting that they get a job and save money to get a horn and a car, or to enlist in the military to pay for school. I have usually ended up dropping them after a while, because they also tend to be the sort of people who show up to my studio unprepared and filled with excuses.
I am not trying to undermine the OP's post, but am offering up a different point of view. I live and work in the POOREST state in the US. I have seen and heard it all. And there are lots of folks out there who simply roll up their sleeves and get to work to find success. I have a former student who had a crackhead for a mother. She was just about never there. Frequently, he needed a ride to and from his lessons. Since he worked his butt off for me, I was happy to both be his driver and to teach him for free for years. He just passed the California Bar exam last week. He never talked about being as poor as he was, or having an absent, uncaring drug drug-addicted mother. He got to work, instead. He bought two tubas over the ensuing years before he went into law. He paid for them with his own money that he earned selling stuff at the mall or cooking at a restaurant. He put himself through years of school. I love that guy. He is the best of the best, IMHO.
And there are a lot of folks in very affluent areas who cannot tie their own shoes without grousing about "the unfairness of it all"…
Whatever. Life is what we choose to make of it.
Cheers.
One was a lark, a Mack Brass 410 that was cheap enough to allow me to find out about the new breed of cheap, Chinese tubas. (For the most part, I was very impressed, too.) Once was a much better Chinese tuba, an excellent Eastman 836 that I picked after several hours of testing six of them. I was very impressed by this horn. The last one was my first tuba, a Yamaha YBB-641 that was a truly excellent tuba in just about every way. It was far better than the 641s they have been selling since they changed it in the (I guess) 1990s. It has been very mediocre since then, IMHO.
I was a poor kid, and I have been a poor adult, never really amounting to much financially. Never having had money, I have never really missed having it, until my health started taking a dump and I couldn't easily afford to fend off the Grim Reaper.
With all that preamble down, I have been the Principal in my orchestra for 33 years now, and won my audition against some folks with a LOT of very nice, slick gear, some even showing up in very nice parent-funded BMWs and the like. I arrived in my 1979 POS Ford Mustang with a giant dent in the side and only one of the four stereo speakers working. (You could listen to Jimi Hendrix's singing, or you could listen to his guitar. You could not have both in this car, heh, heh…) I arrived here in Jackson in that dilapidated death machine with a single CC tuba and no F tuba, and it was a school-owned tuba, at that.
I got a small loan from my Grandpa after I won the gig. I bought a single 4/4 CC tuba. I later sold it for another 4/4 CC tuba. A few years later, I was engaged by the orchestra to play the RVW concerto on a subscription series program, and I did not own an F tuba. I scraped together as much money as I could as fast as I could, and bought a truly mediocre instrument and then sat down to learn it and make do as best I could.
Now I have some stupendous instruments, but it took me many years to get where I am in this regard.
My point is that I had nothing when I started. Very serious people usually find a way to get what they need. Those who do not tend to make excuses about "being poor" or not having supportive parents. Sorry, I have little time to listen to that. I lived it for sixty years, and I have worked my butt off to get around my antagonistic mother, who used to forbid me to practice my horn, go to competitions, or even enroll in music classes at the community college where I took my first-ever tuba lessons.
While in a very prestigious music school, most of my fellow tuba players thought they were serious about being musicians; nevertheless, they were always rolling over due to a lack of money.
After high school, I worked full-time as a waiter and saved as much of my tips as I could, taking off from school for a year to do so, in order to buy that YBB-641 on my own dime at the age of 18. I was serious about stuff. I got what I needed, even if it was not top-shelf gear; then I worked very hard to get the most out of it.
I suffer financially today compared with my orchestra colleagues, most of whom are from very affluent families that supported them rather than trying to undermine them. They were handed $50,000 violins for their high school graduation gifts, along with nice, safe vehicles, and then they were sent to great schools. I had to serve in the military to get money for my great school.
I am not upset by these differences in life circumstances. I still have largely "made it" (to my way of thinking). I do not have time in my life to worry about this nonsense. I am too busy working toward my goals and succeeding to even think much about how easy some folks have had it in life. They were fortunate. I have to work for everything I have, though. I was even homeless for about half of 1989. I worked my way out of that situation and still got what I wanted out of life.
I saw what I wanted. I saw what I needed. I worked out a plan to succeed. Then I did it.
Some of my students have gotten pissed off at me for suggesting that they get a job and save money to get a horn and a car, or to enlist in the military to pay for school. I have usually ended up dropping them after a while, because they also tend to be the sort of people who show up to my studio unprepared and filled with excuses.
I am not trying to undermine the OP's post, but am offering up a different point of view. I live and work in the POOREST state in the US. I have seen and heard it all. And there are lots of folks out there who simply roll up their sleeves and get to work to find success. I have a former student who had a crackhead for a mother. She was just about never there. Frequently, he needed a ride to and from his lessons. Since he worked his butt off for me, I was happy to both be his driver and to teach him for free for years. He just passed the California Bar exam last week. He never talked about being as poor as he was, or having an absent, uncaring drug drug-addicted mother. He got to work, instead. He bought two tubas over the ensuing years before he went into law. He paid for them with his own money that he earned selling stuff at the mall or cooking at a restaurant. He put himself through years of school. I love that guy. He is the best of the best, IMHO.
And there are a lot of folks in very affluent areas who cannot tie their own shoes without grousing about "the unfairness of it all"…
Whatever. Life is what we choose to make of it.
Cheers.
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gocsick
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
Oh you are not undermining my post at all. I am just wondering, what is the best way to support hard working and talented young people?. How do we make tuba playing outside of the school band more accessible?the elephant wrote: Thu Nov 13, 2025 11:29 am
I am not trying to undermine the OP's post, but am offering up a different point of view. I live and work in the POOREST state in the US. I have seen and heard it all. And there are lots of folks out there who simply roll up their sleeves and get to work to find success. ....
And there are a lot of folks in very affluent areas who cannot tie their own shoes without grousing about "the unfairness of it all"…
Whatever. Life is what we choose to make of it.
I am very fortunate... I am in a much better financial position than my parent ever were and I keenly aware that is due as much to luck as it was to any hard work and skill. I have tried very hard to instill that in my children as well. My son works in a restaurant, probably more hours than in good for him, and has been socking away almost every penny he made to fund a tuba for college and pay for a European "Tour" with the Youth Orchestra. He also has managed to keep his GPA in the top 5% of his class... He also understands, at least as much as a 17 year old can, that he is still in a place of real privilege that he gets to save his earnings instead of contributing to the family rent and grocery bill.
I completely agree with most of your points... I think though if you took a poll of the youth orchestra very very few students would have jobs and most come from very affluent families. The music director even made a joke about bringing your $5,000 backup violin instead of your $40,000 one on the plane.
- These users thanked the author gocsick for the post (total 2):
- the elephant (Thu Nov 13, 2025 10:29 pm) • prodigal (Fri Nov 14, 2025 9:52 am)
As amateur as they come...I know just enough to be dangerous.
Meinl-Weston 20
Holton Medium Eb 3+1
Holton Collegiate Sousas in Eb and BBb
Conn 20J
and whole bunch of other "Stuff"
Meinl-Weston 20
Holton Medium Eb 3+1
Holton Collegiate Sousas in Eb and BBb
Conn 20J
and whole bunch of other "Stuff"
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bloke
- Mid South Music
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
annoying redundance:
- I still believe that a King (not gigantic, not the inadequate .5mm gauged easily-dentable ridiculously-impractically-silver-plated brass/not crazy large bore) fiberglass sousaphone (discontinued, probably due to lack of demand) is probably the very best all-around school instrument.
The old King sousaphones had an upper #1 slide.
Restoring that feature on a fiberglass version (and factory-cutting the #1 and #3 slide circuits down to the length they are on the 2341 - yet WITH an upper #1 circuit tuning slide) would be as much as ANY school system (read: TAXPAYERS) should be expected to furnish for band students to use.
They sound great, fiberglass and brass both enclose the same shape/taper air column, and (look: people are going nuts over King-fitting "carbon-fiber" NOT-BRASS bells, because carbon-fiber is "cool" yet fiberglass is "un-cool".)
I've suggested a front-action 3-valve compensating system on a King fiberglass sousaphone...but that will never freakin' happen.
fancier tubas?
- individual parents
- band boosters
low-income parents' (and it's not "low income students"...ALL students are probably "low income" - inless they're given too much allowance) children can make "1st chair All-State" with fiberglass sousaphones, as four of us in a row did...and with not-as-good-as-King (Conn 36K) fiberglass sousaphones. Sousaphone false tones are so excellent that 3-valve sousaphones are - de facto - fully chromatic.
loaning a student of low-income parents are really nice German-made BB-flat tuba: a really nice thing to do
oh yeah: the fiberglass body needs to be THIN and LIGHT (not thick/heavy, such as with Jupiter and the last version of King).
band directors: need to STOP being snooty poots and need to abandon the "white rat/fiberglass sucks" mentality. Yes, fiberglass CAN suck - particularly when a young scholar f's up the connection between brass and fiberglass, uses the wrong neck, dents up the bits so badly that they leak, or any of those other commonly-occurring things.
definitions:
Some people seem to auto-interpret "less affluent" as being synonymous with "black".
"Less affluent" is not a racial euphemism. "Less affluent" means (reflexive axiom) "less affluent".
My high school was (is) in a "less affluent" area of town.
It was an overcrowded/baby boom 3600 student (7-12) school jammed into one designed for about 2500.
Pre-busing, it was nearly 100% white. The district was not gerrymandered, but was drawn as it was because everyone walked to school.
There was one (extremely popular) black student who lived in the district and attended our school.
Just to assure anyone that we were "less affluent", here's a screen shot of Google street view of the houses directly across the street from my high school.
We were not "poor". We had plenty to eat, our fathers had running cars (which our moms could use if they took our fathers to work and picked them back up), our houses had window units/floor furnaces, we had bikes, there was a phone in the hallway, and we had stuff we could do (parks, school dances, sports, music, etc.)
After our fathers had worked at their jobs (many factory jobs, back then) for perhaps fifteen-or-so years and saved up some money on the side, they might build a workshop in the back yard, or even add den or carport (or maybe even a third bedroom and half bath) to one of these houses...but they would usually BUILD THESE STRUCTURES THEMSELVES, as most had saved up enough for materials, but not enough to just go and hire some fancy "construction company".
oh yeah: NONE of us (none of the 3600 of us) were overweight.
This isn't a "back when I was a kid/five-miles-barefoot-in-the-snow" post.
Rather, this is a reality post.
I sorta ate breakfast (though - being one who tended to play tennis until midnight or practice the guitar until 1:00) I usually only got up out of the bed in the morning barely in time to get my butt to the school and inside the classroom in the last second before the tardy bell. I usually didn't eat lunch, but I ate my Mom's well-prepared dinner...That was enough food. I wish - today - that I only ate "enough" food.
I have no idea why the 36K sousaphone was in a hard case...(??)
We only used those cases for "band trips".
Notice that the '71 Catalina's trunk could actually accept that case.
- I still believe that a King (not gigantic, not the inadequate .5mm gauged easily-dentable ridiculously-impractically-silver-plated brass/not crazy large bore) fiberglass sousaphone (discontinued, probably due to lack of demand) is probably the very best all-around school instrument.
The old King sousaphones had an upper #1 slide.
Restoring that feature on a fiberglass version (and factory-cutting the #1 and #3 slide circuits down to the length they are on the 2341 - yet WITH an upper #1 circuit tuning slide) would be as much as ANY school system (read: TAXPAYERS) should be expected to furnish for band students to use.
They sound great, fiberglass and brass both enclose the same shape/taper air column, and (look: people are going nuts over King-fitting "carbon-fiber" NOT-BRASS bells, because carbon-fiber is "cool" yet fiberglass is "un-cool".)
I've suggested a front-action 3-valve compensating system on a King fiberglass sousaphone...but that will never freakin' happen.
fancier tubas?
- individual parents
- band boosters
low-income parents' (and it's not "low income students"...ALL students are probably "low income" - inless they're given too much allowance) children can make "1st chair All-State" with fiberglass sousaphones, as four of us in a row did...and with not-as-good-as-King (Conn 36K) fiberglass sousaphones. Sousaphone false tones are so excellent that 3-valve sousaphones are - de facto - fully chromatic.
loaning a student of low-income parents are really nice German-made BB-flat tuba: a really nice thing to do
oh yeah: the fiberglass body needs to be THIN and LIGHT (not thick/heavy, such as with Jupiter and the last version of King).
band directors: need to STOP being snooty poots and need to abandon the "white rat/fiberglass sucks" mentality. Yes, fiberglass CAN suck - particularly when a young scholar f's up the connection between brass and fiberglass, uses the wrong neck, dents up the bits so badly that they leak, or any of those other commonly-occurring things.
definitions:
Some people seem to auto-interpret "less affluent" as being synonymous with "black".
"Less affluent" is not a racial euphemism. "Less affluent" means (reflexive axiom) "less affluent".
My high school was (is) in a "less affluent" area of town.
It was an overcrowded/baby boom 3600 student (7-12) school jammed into one designed for about 2500.
Pre-busing, it was nearly 100% white. The district was not gerrymandered, but was drawn as it was because everyone walked to school.
There was one (extremely popular) black student who lived in the district and attended our school.
Just to assure anyone that we were "less affluent", here's a screen shot of Google street view of the houses directly across the street from my high school.
We were not "poor". We had plenty to eat, our fathers had running cars (which our moms could use if they took our fathers to work and picked them back up), our houses had window units/floor furnaces, we had bikes, there was a phone in the hallway, and we had stuff we could do (parks, school dances, sports, music, etc.)
After our fathers had worked at their jobs (many factory jobs, back then) for perhaps fifteen-or-so years and saved up some money on the side, they might build a workshop in the back yard, or even add den or carport (or maybe even a third bedroom and half bath) to one of these houses...but they would usually BUILD THESE STRUCTURES THEMSELVES, as most had saved up enough for materials, but not enough to just go and hire some fancy "construction company".
oh yeah: NONE of us (none of the 3600 of us) were overweight.
This isn't a "back when I was a kid/five-miles-barefoot-in-the-snow" post.
Rather, this is a reality post.
I sorta ate breakfast (though - being one who tended to play tennis until midnight or practice the guitar until 1:00) I usually only got up out of the bed in the morning barely in time to get my butt to the school and inside the classroom in the last second before the tardy bell. I usually didn't eat lunch, but I ate my Mom's well-prepared dinner...That was enough food. I wish - today - that I only ate "enough" food.
I have no idea why the 36K sousaphone was in a hard case...(??)
We only used those cases for "band trips".
Notice that the '71 Catalina's trunk could actually accept that case.
Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
What is "affluence"?
Here is how Solomon defined it:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
The term "generational wealth" has been tossed around lately, but "generational wisdom" is so much more valuable. As has been written by our fellow forum members, what you do with what you have is most important. The Parable Of The Talents illustrates that concept:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV
A "talent" is defined as not just a unit of currency, but also as opportunity and natural ability.
Getting more concrete, we spent an astonishingly small amount of money on our oldest son's musical training. Return On Investment was a high priority.
Here is the CC tuba I got for him:
https://mackbrass.com/tu410-cc-tuba
It had very good sound, intonation, and response. It was big enough to fill an orchestra and cheap enough to hand over to an 11-year-old. He used it performing Symphonie Fantastique with the National Symphony Orchestra at age 13, getting first chair All-State freshman year, and performed on it in the Kennedy Center, Kimmel Center, and Carnegie Hall.
His public schools had very strong music programs. All-district, regional, and state ensembles were free. So was this:
https://www.carnegiehall.org/Education/ ... es/NYO-USA
This was a free and absolutely fantastic opportunity he had for 6 years, studying with terrific pro players:
https://www.kennedy-center.org/educatio ... h-fellows/
He played in this wonderful brass ensemble for 4 years, also free:
https://brassofpeace.org/
We paid for this fabulous youth orchestra, but they have scholarships for lower-income students:
https://www.aypo.org/
Music Conservatory was also free tuition, room, and board:
https://colburnschool.edu/conservatory/
Back to "affluence"- I was a middle-class kid, as were our kids. My wife grew up in a poor country, going without running water and electricity, and walking two hours to school at age 6. Her country was affected by Civil War, corruption, and lack of opportunity. She worked extremely hard and appreciated every opportunity. Spending money on a bunch of stuff was certainly not a way of life for them, and we didn't do that for our kids.
As parents, our "affluence" is peace, national prosperity, and opportunity. Our sons' "affluence" was guidance, support, and opportunity. They know they were given much and have a duty to do much with it. They have worked hard, been very persistent, and kept their lives in order. I pray it continues. It's just not all about the $$$ they get.
Our oldest now makes a living playing the tuba.
Here is how Solomon defined it:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
The term "generational wealth" has been tossed around lately, but "generational wisdom" is so much more valuable. As has been written by our fellow forum members, what you do with what you have is most important. The Parable Of The Talents illustrates that concept:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV
A "talent" is defined as not just a unit of currency, but also as opportunity and natural ability.
Getting more concrete, we spent an astonishingly small amount of money on our oldest son's musical training. Return On Investment was a high priority.
Here is the CC tuba I got for him:
https://mackbrass.com/tu410-cc-tuba
It had very good sound, intonation, and response. It was big enough to fill an orchestra and cheap enough to hand over to an 11-year-old. He used it performing Symphonie Fantastique with the National Symphony Orchestra at age 13, getting first chair All-State freshman year, and performed on it in the Kennedy Center, Kimmel Center, and Carnegie Hall.
His public schools had very strong music programs. All-district, regional, and state ensembles were free. So was this:
https://www.carnegiehall.org/Education/ ... es/NYO-USA
This was a free and absolutely fantastic opportunity he had for 6 years, studying with terrific pro players:
https://www.kennedy-center.org/educatio ... h-fellows/
He played in this wonderful brass ensemble for 4 years, also free:
https://brassofpeace.org/
We paid for this fabulous youth orchestra, but they have scholarships for lower-income students:
https://www.aypo.org/
Music Conservatory was also free tuition, room, and board:
https://colburnschool.edu/conservatory/
Back to "affluence"- I was a middle-class kid, as were our kids. My wife grew up in a poor country, going without running water and electricity, and walking two hours to school at age 6. Her country was affected by Civil War, corruption, and lack of opportunity. She worked extremely hard and appreciated every opportunity. Spending money on a bunch of stuff was certainly not a way of life for them, and we didn't do that for our kids.
As parents, our "affluence" is peace, national prosperity, and opportunity. Our sons' "affluence" was guidance, support, and opportunity. They know they were given much and have a duty to do much with it. They have worked hard, been very persistent, and kept their lives in order. I pray it continues. It's just not all about the $$$ they get.
Our oldest now makes a living playing the tuba.
Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
I was lucky to have school supplied tubas/sousas through high school. I was blessed with having a new 184 BBb which was about the right size for our school band. What kept me motivated was having two free community bands that would welcome teenagers. PLAYING WITH ADULTS WHO WERE THERE BECAUSE THEY ENJOY(ED) MAKING MUSIC MADE ALL OF THE DIFFERENCE! School band was meh, but when you're playing with your teachers, people 4 times your age, and some professionals in the mix, it really makes you play up in a hurry knowing you're the weakest link.
1960 186CC
B&S 5099/PT-15
Cerveny 653
A bunch of string instruments
B&S 5099/PT-15
Cerveny 653
A bunch of string instruments
-
Canadian_tubist
- Posts: 18
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Re: Chellenges for less affluent students
I just want to say that I found this thread inspiring and refreshing. Going to spend less time lamenting circumstances or how things could've been different, and more time practicing and getting excited for gigs!
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- prodigal (Tue Nov 25, 2025 3:52 pm)
1957 Conn 25J, also have a 34J's recording bell
1966 Boosey and Hawkes Imperial BBb 3-valve compensating
1966 Boosey and Hawkes Imperial BBb 3-valve compensating