About pitch issues on old instruments

[Mary]

Good evening everyone,
my name is Mary and I recently joined this forum.

I would like to ask how you usually deal with instruments that play consistently flat.

I own an Ernst David helicon. As the workshop is said to have closed in 1945, the instrument is likely at least 80 years old.
It is a light and beautiful helicon, and I would really like to use it in actual performance situations, but its low pitch is a constant concern.

To compensate, I have shortened the leadpipe slightly and use a shallower mouthpiece with a narrower shank (Perantucci PT-64) to reduce the overall tube length.
With these adjustments, I can barely bring the main tuning B♭ up to A=442 Hz.

However, many notes are still quite flat. In particular, F, E, and E♭ are so low that I often have to use fingerings a semitone higher to compensate.

I am now unsure how to proceed with this instrument:
• Should I preserve it as a vintage instrument and avoid irreversible modifications?
• Or would it be reasonable to cut the main tuning slide so that it can be used more reliably on stage?

For reference, I originally purchased this helicon for USD 1,150.

I also struggle with this question on a more personal level.
Is it simply ego to cut an 80-year-old instrument just because it does not match modern pitch standards?
At the same time, in its current state, there are very few situations where this helicon can realistically be used.

Perhaps something like TubaChristmas would be a place where such an instrument could still be accepted — but beyond that, I am not sure.

I would greatly appreciate hearing your thoughts and experiences. Thank you very much.

[bloke]

Last night out in the shop - on a customer's old newish-looking (probably closeted for two decades, as it was unplayable) Chinese knockoff of a Miraphone model 84 BB-flat tuba, I was only able to get it to where it would tune up to A=442 (pushed in all the way) by the skin of the instrument's teeth (only removing tubing from the horizontal tuning slide area, and not having to get into the instrument's bows).

I'm pretty sure I removed at least five inches of tubing... Lots of little chunks on the floor when I was done, and so much that the placement of the brace from the bottom bow to the lower outside slide tube had to be repositioned on both ends, as there was no longer a place to brace tubing on the slide tubing end of the brace.

Tubas are long, and - when they play quite flat - it takes inches of tubing removal (not millimeters or a centimeter) to address the problem. Changing a mouthpiece shank size or moving to a shallower cup isn't going to do much.

If a sousaphone or helicon has been made as short as it can be in the tuning slide area and it's still quite flat, that's troublesome because - rather than bows - the instruments' expanding bore sections are constructed of arches, and shortening those arches (obviously) ends up being ruinous to the shape/geometry of the instrument.

Personally, I'm no collector of anything in particular, and I don't see any purpose for an instrument other than to play it and enjoy playing it. Old tubas (based on my observations over the decades) don't bring much money if they don't play well and they take up a lot of space and collect a lot of dust.

[TheBerlinerTuba]

Hello Mary,

I see Helikons from this maker in my workshop quite often and I believe your leadpipe is far longer than when the instrument was new.
Also there are quite a few of them still out in the world so don’t feel too bad about modifying it.

Good luck and all the best,
Berliner Tuba

[Mary]

Last night out in the shop - on a customer's old newish-looking (probably closeted for two decades, as it was unplayable) Chinese knockoff of a Miraphone model 84 BB-flat tuba, I was only able to get it to where it would tune up to A=442 (pushed in all the way) by the skin of the instrument's teeth (only removing tubing from the horizontal tuning slide area, and not having to get into the instrument's bows).

I'm pretty sure I removed at least five inches of tubing... Lots of little chunks on the floor when I was done, and so much that the placement of the brace from the bottom bow to the lower outside slide tube had to be repositioned on both ends, as there was no longer a place to brace tubing on the slide tubing end of the brace.

Tubas are long, and - when they play quite flat - it takes inches of tubing removal (not millimeters or a centimeter) to address the problem. Changing a mouthpiece shank size or moving to a shallower cup isn't going to do much.

If a sousaphone or helicon has been made as short as it can be in the tuning slide area and it's still quite flat, that's troublesome because - rather than bows - the instruments' expanding bore sections are constructed of arches, and shortening those arches (obviously) ends up being ruinous to the shape/geometry of the instrument.

Personally, I'm no collector of anything in particular, and I don't see any purpose for an instrument other than to play it and enjoy playing it. Old tubas (based on my observations over the decades) don't bring much money if they don't play well and they take up a lot of space and collect a lot of dust.

Hi Bloke,

Thank you for your response and for sharing your experience. Removing 5 inches of tubing is quite a significant operation!

I had only shortened the mouthpiece side by about 2 inches using a narrower shank, and I am disappointed to realize that this is far from enough to reach A=442Hz. Removing 5 inches would surely change the original silhouette and the balanced design of this historic instrument quite a bit.

I will take your advice and experience to my local repairman to discuss whether we should proceed with this "major surgery." I appreciate the reality check.

Best regards,
Mary

P.S.

I truly believe that instruments are meant to be played. I am not a collector; I simply love making music and dream of playing in sessions with others. That is why I’ve been struggling with whether to cut this historic horn—I want to be in tune so I don’t cause trouble for my fellow musicians.

Your advice has given me the courage I needed. I now feel that making these adjustments is the right step to bring this Helicon back to life on stage. Thank you so much for your support.

[Mary]

Hello Mary,

I see Helikons from this maker in my workshop quite often and I believe your leadpipe is far longer than when the instrument was new.
Also there are quite a few of them still out in the world so don’t feel too bad about modifying it.

Good luck and all the best,
Berliner Tuba

Hi Berliner Tuba,

Thank you so much for your insightful response! It's fascinating to hear that the leadpipe might be longer than the original design. My local repairman previously removed a silver adjuster that was attached to the end of the pipe, and I suspect that might be exactly where the issue lies.

Knowing that there are other surviving examples of this model gives me the confidence to move forward with the modification. I am now determined to get this Helicon ready for the stage rather than letting it collect dust in my room. Thank you for your encouragement and for sharing your expertise!

Best regards,
Mary

[scottw]

Don't fret that you may be destroying an historic instrument--1949 isn't that. By all means, do the work needed and enjoy playing it without fingering gymnastics. And remember, to remove 5" of tubing, you need only 2 1/2" off the tuning slide or other such slides, so it isn't as daunting as it may seem.
Enjoy!
scottw

[bloke]

...and - if you find yourself tilting your head back to play the thing (of course!) shorten the removable neck-pipe.

[Mary]

Don't fret that you may be destroying an historic instrument--1949 isn't that. By all means, do the work needed and enjoy playing it without fingering gymnastics. And remember, to remove 5" of tubing, you need only 2 1/2" off the tuning slide or other such slides, so it isn't as daunting as it may seem.
Enjoy!
scottw

Hi Scottw,

Thank you for your response. Hearing that I don't need to worry too much about it has really put my mind at ease.

Also, thank you for the crucial reminder about the tubing! You are right—since the air goes in and out, I only need to cut 2.5 inches off the slide to remove 5 inches of total length. I will make sure to share this specific calculation with my repairman as we discuss the plan. I’m feeling much more confident about this now. I'll do my best!

Best regards,
Mary

[bloke]

I removed a total of about 4-1/2 inches to bring this instrument up to (barely) be able to play above A=440.
Previous (with the main slide pushed in all the way) it played about 35c. flat (flatter on the acoustically flat pitches, obviously).
https://tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=122721


It's pretty easy to figure out (approximately) how much tubing to remove:
Set your tuner's pitch adjustment so-as (regardless of how flat) MOST of the "open" pitches are reading about in-tune.
Next, check the 2nd-valve pitches.
IF those are also (with the tuner adjusted) reading with the needle close to the center, then pull out the 2nd slide from the starting point until the tuner is reading as flat as the the instrument itself is known to be flat. Measure the amount of pull, and multiply by two to get the approximate amount that the instrument is too long. Because you're working with a "2nd valve" overtone series (vs. an "open" overtone series) it won't be quite right, but it will be close enough (particularly as you'll be desiring some pull room (for when playing outdoors in excessive heat, etc.)

[Mary]

...and - if you find yourself tilting your head back to play the thing (of course!) shorten the removable neck-pipe.

Hi Bloke,

Thank you so much for the incredibly helpful information! I am truly grateful for the detailed diagram showing exactly where and in what order to cut. This is exactly what I needed to show my local repairman.

Interestingly, after removing the adjuster, the leadpipe actually feels a bit too short for my posture now. My hope is that by shortening the main tubing as you suggested, I might be able to put the adjuster back on to achieve the perfect fit.

I am so happy to have received such kind advice from everyone in this forum. I feel ready to take on this modification project! Thank you again.

Best regards,
Mary

[bloke]

Your repair person may well be smarter than I am, which wouldn't be much of a brag.

[ghmerrill]

So you're thinking that this might be a low pitch instrument? I think that might be a bit odd in the 1940s, but maybe ... Did you attempt to determine the pitch to which it was built -- or just go ahead and try to raise it?

It took me some effort to determine that my 1924 Buescher Eb was pitched to 435. Then I shortened it (after calculating what the approximate length change(s) should be), and it plays pretty well in tune (except I do have to use the 3rd valve slide as a kind of "kick slide" for some pitches. It was never the best tuba on the planet, but it's fun to play. (I also eventually replaced the ***** "small european" receiver so I could use a normal US shank mouthpiece with it.)

At least low pitch instruments can be raised without too much drama, but ... It won't (shouldn't?) work to just cut down the full length of the horn. All that gets you is that the open horn plays to the pitch you want. You've still got those pesky tuning slides for the valves, and they're still long and flat since of course they're designed to work with the original pitch. So to get your overall intonation right, you have to cut down the valve circuits as well.

Perhaps this accounts for your observation that "However, many notes are still quite flat. In particular, F, E, and E♭ are so low that I often have to use fingerings a semitone higher to compensate."? It sounds like you've just retuned the open horn -- but not the valves circuits.???

[TheBerlinerTuba]

Hello Mary,

for your reference, here is what the original looks like.

All the best,
Berliner Tuba

[Wilco]

What is the story behind those gnomes? :D