What was your favorite horn in the elephant room at the army workshop?

[thedancingsousa]

So far, of what I've tried, I really loved the smaller Willson Eb that Baltimore Brass brought along. The 3400s I think? That thing puts out an incredible sound, although being a little awkwardly shaped. I think I would've liked it even more if I had any idea how to play Eb tuba, but I managed to transpose a couple things in my head to try it. Man, what a little beast of a horn.

I'm choosing not to list complaints about other horns here, but you can if you want.

[thedancingsousa]

Second place would be a close race between the Siermann Arthur F (I think? The silver f they had) and the 2250 buffet brought along.

[PlayTheTuba]

The compact Wilson Eb.

Well I think the Miraphone 494 BBb is the bees knees.

An honorable mention to my King 1280 BBb pit tuba ... Even though I forgot to bring the bits with me

I'll start a longer thread later of my brief thoughts on the other horns that I have tooted on

Thank you everyone at @Lee Stofer 's area to let people try it out!

[thedancingsousa]

That Willson felt like such a monster. Every note spoke so well and felt so solid.

[Sousaswag]

Those Willsons are so good. Really happy that they’ve made their way over here to more people.

[tubatodd]

Did anyone get to play the Siermann Skylark (Hirsbrunner HB-2P clone)? I've been curious how they are.

[basstrumpet13]

While I didn't get to attend this year, it's nice to see people praising the Willson Compact Eb. That was by far the best horn I tried at the previous year's convention. The horn damn-near plays itself!

[PlayTheTuba]

Time for the long list

My actual favorite tuba at the workshop and, in my opinion, the best horn (I think there was 4 of them!)

Miraphone 494 Hagen 3/4 BBb: Miraphone this one of the finest instruments ever conceived! This model is absolutely nuts, bonkers, no amount of praise can ever be enough. This horn (well horns) deserves poems about its greatness! HAVE Y'ALL SEEN MIRAPHONE's LOGO! This tuba is the literal embodiment of it! When the light shined upon this Earth, the 494 descended from the heavens! Is it even possible to surpass such an instrument??!! As far as I am concerned, it is a crowning achievement for mankind.

Miraphone logo
https://www.miraphone.de/media/logo/def ... Logo_1.png

Miraphone logo in color
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... e_logo.svg

All hail Miraphone

The only negative I guess, would be that it still sounds like a small BBb. A very good sounding small BBb. Also, this tuba is more of a 7/8 sized tuba, like a Conn 5j. And because I giving it so much praise, someone, out there, is going to be like,

"This horn is meh, this horn sucks! Who would ever like this tuba!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fellow tuuubbbbiiiiiiisssssts, do you guys have any idea how incredible it is to almost have all of the Willson Eb's in the same room at the same time! The only one that was missing was the rotary model. But, this years Conference had the compact model, the tall one, and the top action one!!!!

Even though I am still not a fan of the Willson tuba sound...

Willson Eb 3400S FA-5 'Gabriel Capet': But this horn plays wonderfully. And I do prefer this models sound over the taller ones though. Honestly, this deserves almost as much praise I am giving the Miraphone 494.

Man, what a little beast of a horn.

YYYEEEESSSSS

That Willson felt like such a monster. Every note spoke so well and felt so solid.

YYYUUUUUSSSSS

The horn damn-near plays itself!

-Negatives: This is the only piston tuba to EVER hurt my pinky, when I was trying to use both the 4th and 5th valves fully depressed... Softer springs and adjusting the thumb ring to suite my hand would solve that problem. Still... chill out with with the spring tension. Oh, I guess the ergonomics is not bad but it is a little odd at first.

In short, if I was going to take a horn home with me, this would be the one.

Willson Eb 3400 TA-4 3+1 Compensator: I find this tuba comfortable to hold. Plays well. The only negative is the 'compensating' aspect is, well, noticeable. I think part of it is because the horn plays so well, when the 4th valve is engaged, it becomes more obvious. Now that I got a chance to try this 3+1 one too, I think the 3+1 compensator Eb I liked so far the most is the Geneva Cardinal. Still, between this and the front action version, I would rather have this one. I did keep coming back to this horn and the 3400s. Deciding which I liked better. But the 3400s played a lot better, and I liked the sound a little more.



Willson Eb 3400 FA-5 'Marty Erickson': Similar to the other Eb's, but I would rather have the 3+1 compensator.

Vintage King 4/4 BBb: When I first say this tuba I was a little surprised. This tuba not only is old enough (sousaphone not withstanding) to have its main tuning slide before the valves, but it also has a slide within a slide. Another horn that has 2 main tuning slides... neat. The Yamaha 623 (BBb & CC), the Willson BBb version of the Canadian Brass CC (solo model?), and the B&S 3301/3302 (pt 2p) that I a aware of. I am going to assume the reason it has 2 main tuning slides because it used to be a high pitch tuba? But I have no idea.

When I first started to play it, I was really, really disappointed. My mood towards that horn was soured. So far, all King BBb's (and classic US style/made horns) that I have tried I liked. I set the horn down, and started to walk around the elephant room again. I kept thinking about it. Because the 4th valve was very flat. After thinking about it for a awhile, I cam to a conclusion or theory that the 4th valve tubing was intentionally that long and it is not a flaw of the actual horn itself. So when I went back, I decided to try my RT 44 mouthpiece instead of the RT 82 to see if if responds better. I also decided to put my tuner with its contact microphone to see how good the intonation was, if that had an effect too.

I started playing, adjusted the slides. At that point I spoke with... Joe? @jtuba (I am terrible with names, please correct me if I am wrong!). I also think you were the kind gentleman I spoke with last year (2025) about the 6 valve rotary Hirsbrunner CC. We talked for a bit. Basically, both he and I confirmed with the tuner, that the 4th valve was indeed too long, because it was lengthened to an E!

I played the horn as one would play a normal 3 valve horn with the tuner. The only note that was considered 'bad' was the 23 f#/Gb was 20 cents flat (which is common and typical, that usually means the 3rd valve is a little long, I also had the second vale pulled out too, which is also a factor). If I recall C in the staff use 13 and for D in the staff use 3. Normally, I am used D in staff to either be in tune open or 12 if the open note is flat. On this tuba though, it was playing sharp. It is possible that it is actually in-tune and I am subconsciously playing up, since I have use the 4th valve on my CC tuba, which can ride a little low. I don't recall what the tuning was above the staff, but I assume it was just as good. In my opinion, this tuba has some nice intonation!

I liked this horn more with my RT 44, and the brief tooting I did with the Kellyburg.

-- If had to let my B&S 4097 (PT 20) go, I would happy to have this King in its place as an all around tuba. --

HOWEVER

1.) The 4 valve would have to be shortened back to a normal length

or...

2.) The 1st valve and maybe the 3rd valve would need rods. Because, with the 4th valve tuned to E, pedal Eb is now in tune with 24, all of the other combinations are now too long or too short! That or my brain just didn't want to figure out the proper combinations.






Wessex 6/4 Eb Tuba ‘Tubby’ - TE665HP: Love it. I llloooovvvvveee the big or monster Eb tuba sound! I actually got a chance to play this tuba with a tuner this time around. It was flat natured, I thought the intonation was still good. certain combinations work better with 3rd valve alone, others with 12... Which, on paper, is fine. I'd like to play more with a tuner. Holding a tuba and the tuner at the same time makes a bit tricky to adjust things on the fly.

Miraphone F 1281 'Petruschka': Fantastic. Enjoyed playing on it. Whoever that women was on the phone all those years ago that I happen to be in ear shot of, the Petrushka is still just as incredible then as it is now. It is my first time also trying this tuba out. I actually did play on some F tubas this time around too, but this was by far my favorite F tuba!

Miraphone BBb 496 5/4 'Hagen': Plays wonderfully. Sounds amazing too. Low register response feels great to me too.

Miraphone BBb 495 4/4 'Hagen': I still think it is the weakest of the Hagen series. I though the low register responded better with the RT 44. I do like this more than the Miraphone 186 BBb that was next to it.

Meinl Weston 97/2 4/4 BBb: Good job MW, you have made a BBb German style tuba that I actually liked! This and the Hirsbrunner Kaiser would make that 2. Well, A tuba with a long lead pipe, large bore, tall stove pipe like bell, with little or even no bell flare. Yes, I know the Miraphone Hagen series would essentially be under the same category, but they are not the same. Basically, I was not the biggest fan of the piston Rudy's, the MW Fafner's and MW Fasolt. I do not like the MW 25, Yamaha 641 (), and the Wessex 6/4 Kaiser.




***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I am going to lump these 3 horns together. I Like how all of them played and sounded. I am going to still give the Eastman the edge. Of all of the compensating tubas that have tried (in any key), I still think that the Eastman does the best job of making me forget that it has compensating valves. In other words, when the 4th valve is engaged, it isn't as noticeable or distracting. It just plays well and feels fine. The Elgar is the same but I think I still prefer the Eastman. The Gnagey plays well too, and I like the tone that it has.

Eastman Eb EBE853 Front Action Compensator

Wessex Eb TE465 P ‘Gnagey’ – A 5 valve non-compensating front action Eb tuba. The valve is a little odd though.

Wessex Eb TE557P ‘Elgar-Americano’ Front Action Compensator - The valves are inline. The regular Front Action Elgar is a 3+1 though.

***********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Meinl Weston 4260 "Tradition" F 6 valve Tuba: - If I had this tuba, it would take me awhile to figure out what finger is doing what! Quite confusing with 6 valves plus several finger/thumb activated slide mechanisms.

Meinl Weston F 2250 'VB' Tuba: The 'Velvet Brown' edition of the 2250. I enjoyed playing on it. I liked it more than the standard 2250. Is it because of the more ergonomic valve block? Smaller bell? Both? In my opinion I hope Buffet Crampon will re-engineer their other models to use this valve cluster instead. This model also features the removable screw on bell, faaancy. Had the removable part been lower, someone could have possibly made a custom bell front / recording bell for it too! Aw well.

Miraphone 5+1 6 valve 481 'Elektra': I thought was nice. It does start building resistance a lot faster when you are descending

Yamaha F YFB-621: At least I think this was this model that was at the Workshop. I thought it was fine. I guess the third best F tuba I tried? I'd rather have the 'Elektra' more though.

-_--__---___----____-----_____------______-------_______--------________--------________-------_______------______-----_____----____---___--__-_

I know I tried the other Buffet Crampon F's. I thought they were okay and/or alright, I guess.

I didn't play them for very long. I should judge more based how they play from F2 and up. Unless someone wants a F tuba to be the 'do everything' tuba.

-_--__---___----____-----_____------______-------_______--------________--------________-------_______------______-----_____----____---___--__-_

Eastman BBb EBB534: Still like it . I am pretty sure I picked this one up. I didn't realize the Eastman EBB622 even existed (it does say new on Eastman's website at the time of this post). Thank you @aarongsmith for mentioning it. I'll make sure to look for it the next time tuba gathering (Elephant Migration Gathering? ). Seeing as I already like a King 2341 / EBB 534 / Kanstul 33T and 33S.

Conn 26J/27J BBb Recording Bass: Now that is a big upright bell! Outside of one vintage BBb 4/4 or 4.5/4 Conn, don't really like the Conn tuba sound. The short action valves does cause to get real stuffy in the 4th valve register. I feel like the BBb compensators is easier to deal with. HOWEVER, from F1 and up, MONEY . It could be an illusion or placebo thanks to the short stroke, but it plays so well I'd figure it is the horn itself. The description that Lee Stofer's website, https://tubameister.com/pre-owned-instruments/ is spot on.



Buescher Custom CC Tuba: Don't remember any details but a nice playing and sounding tuba. No surprised to see on Mr Stofer's site that is has been sold.

York 5 valve CC Tuba: The way the leadpipe was is attached is neat and peculiar to look at. Nice tuba but I liked the Buescher Custom CC more.

Sierman CC 'SKYLARK' 4550WT-S: I thought it was fine. I don't think I tried the Hirsbrunner original at Stofer's. I think it is because I figured if the Sierman played fine, chances are the Hirsbrunner is just as good if not better. Only Sierman tuba I remember briefly trying. Not entirely sure why I didn't try the others.

Wilson BBb 3100 TA-4-O 5/4 3+1 Compensator: I did try this tuba with my PT48, RT82, RT44, and 2 piece steel Kellyburg. For this particular horn, I thought the RT44 made the comensating response less noticable. It is a pretty cool big horn!

Lidl BBb LBB 701: A 3/4 tuba. I liked it this time around! So uh good job little buddy!
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxjm7oVmgzAI ... xLzBz_hxoX

I did try the B&S 4197, 3098, 3198, The Rudy Meinl Piston CC and BBb. The Kanstul 5/4 CC and BBb. This is a place holder when I come back. I thought they were fine.

[cthuba]

Im judging by the lack of chirping that the new Wessex Rotary 6/4 didn’t perform well?

[thedancingsousa]

I was actually really excited to play it. Honestly, it just didn't feel good to me. The rotors felt pretty loose to my hand, and the size of sound didn't match the size of the horn. Maybe that will get sorted before production, though. The California F they feature now is very different to my memories of the prototype they had at Iowa itec

[Mary Ann]

My actual favorite tuba at the workshop and, in my opinion, the best horn ( I think there was 4 of them!) is

Miraphone 494 Hagen 3/4 BBb: Miraphone this one of the finest instruments ever conceived! This model is absolutely nuts, bonkers, no amount of praise can ever be enough. This horn (well horns) deserves poems about its greatness! HAVE Y'ALL SEEN MIRAPHONE's LOGO! This tuba is the literal embodiment of it! When the light shined upon this Earth, the 494 descended from the heavens! Is it even possible to surpass such an instrument??!! As far as I am concerned, it is a crowning achievement for mankind.

I quite like my 494, even though it has not yet left the house to be played elsewhere. Nothing else is like it.

[aarongsmith]

I had my own booth to attend to, so I only got to play a few things.

My favorite was the Norwegian Star that I bought from Dillon before the show even started.

IMG_6549.jpg (161.24 KiB) Viewed 1648 times

Eastman
I really liked the updated Eastman BBbs with the Rotax valves, especially the all gold brass 825VG that Mike bought. It took the 825VG from being pretty good to great. A
Eastman's new piston 4/4 BBb based on the "York" horns was killer and nobody showed it much love. It's a much better feeling horn than the EBB534 and I would be surprised if they can justify keeping both in a few years.

The Eastman rotor Fs were all really good to. The rotax valves really fixed the cheap feel of the valves that I felt on the older examples. I am strongly considering picking the 867 up in the future to have for students and when I feel like playing F.

I generally thought that the updated Rotax valves felt great on every horn they added them to. Fwiw they are as light and nimble as any other well made rotor now versus the old ones.

Baltimore Brass

The piston Rudy's that Baltimore took on consignment from Lee were really good too. Not my flavor but I like them.

That MW 197/2 is the probably the best BBb kaiser I have ever played. I could not find anything to dislike really.

The new 2250VB rocks, the tighter valve cluster fixes the ergonomic issues I have with MW big valves plus the screwbell is really cool. The horn play well too, but at the end of the day was just a more comfortable to use 2250, so there's not too much to unpack other than the valves and screwbell.

Did anyone get to play the Siermann Skylark (Hirsbrunner HB-2P clone)? I've been curious how they are.

It was pretty damn good. Played like a decent HB2P, not amazing but pretty damn good. Really responsive and it had good intonation. I played it next to the one owner HB2P that Lee had there, which was a golden example of the horn for sure. The Sierman held its own but didn't quite compare. The Hirsbrunner was better overall in sound and response, but the Sierman had a very easy Low G and great intonation.

The PT6 clone was excellent though. May as well have been a lighter version of the real thing.

Other Stuff

Lee had a great 27/26J that was a joy to play. He also bought a friend of mine's original York 5v CC that was for sale in Richmond last year or so. It was a cool horn, but it definitely needed some restoration work to play well. It very clearly had some leaks or compression issues.

I had a YFB821S "Bobo" that people really liked that is still available. It's a killer little F that needs a good home.

[Rick Denney]

Hi, guys, it's been a while.

I also thought both of the 494's that Dillon brought were superb--much more interesting to me than the 495 sitting next to them.

I got to play and hear the new Eastman EBB825 which I think has Rotax-style valves, and I think it's better than the previous version, with a bit more focus and clarity. The old one is a great tuba in my view, and this one's better. Not as good as my Hirsbrunner, of course, but those are not exactly thick on the ground.

I didn't see or play the Meinl-Weston 197. I didn't get there until lunchtime on Friday, so maybe it left before I arrived.

Old instruments were not thick on the ground. Lee brought a couple, including a Conn 28J with four valves and both bells. The King Pit Tuba that someone sort-of plopped down in Lee's booth fit within my expectations of the old-style 2341/1241 with a forward bell--interesting but it would be hard to live with. A York C tuba was being shown privately and I had a chance to play it--not in my league or interest area but still a fun experience.

Of the F tubas that were there, I liked the new Eastmans and the old B&S's the best, well, except for a Yamaha 821 Custom, which just made me feel good.

I did manage to acquire on the secondary market just the cup/shank portion of Joe's Orchestra Grand Ultimate, which I think has a "standard" (i.e. American) shank--0.520" on the narrow end. The shank is too small for my big tubas for which that cup would normally be suited, but I was really wanting it for my 4/4 rotary tuba, which has a smallish receiver. I screwed on one of my 33.2 rims. And it seems to be an excellent choice for...

...the one tuba I could not resist acquiring while I was there, which was a 1970-vintage Miraphone (er--Mirafone) 186. This was one of the few scarred-up oldies that had a don't-have-to-ask-permission price on it. The seller's tech had done a decent job of going through it. It had new bumpers and new corks, and the valves were properly fitted and aligned and the old S-links restored to quiet operation. All the slides are straight and move smoothly as they should. The top outer branch has a couple of fairly insignificant mishap dents, but the only dent that bugged me was in the leadpipe, and Lee ran some dent balls through that for me to lift it. I used to own a 186, and of all the 186's I'd played, that was one of them. But it was from the 1979 BoboBoom with a serial number in the 11000's, while this one is right at the leading edge of the BoboBoom with a serial number just above 5900. I think it lives up to the hype of old 4-digit Miraphones. The lacquer is scratched up and patchy, which is why it was cheap. Lots of young players and amateurs would have passed it up to pay several times as much for something shiny and less good. Intonation is Miraphone-excellent (read: not perfect but requiring no alternate fingerings even for the 5th partial, which my Giardinelli/B&S 101 cannot boast).

The old B&S 101 has more projection but less meat and warmth in the sound, at least that's my initial perception. The Miraphone has all sorts of pretty detailing, of course, but those details are sorta lost in all that patchy lacquer. My professional advisors declared this an excellent example of a 186, not the mid-pack example that was my previous one. It came with a wheeled plastic-shell MTS case in very good condition but I already have an old Cronkhite/Reunion Blues gig bag for it and that case is bulky.

The only mistake the seller's tech made was mixing up the finger paddles and S-links between the first and second valves, which took me about five minutes to correct. After fiddling with it a bit the tuba's linkages provide less supplementary percussion than the linkages on my Hirsbrunner.

So, that 56-year-old Miraphone was absolutely the best sub-$2K tuba at the Army Workshop, by an infinite margin, given that I don't think there were any other sub-$2K tubas for sale.

Rick "seems to be collecting 4/4 instruments again" Denney

[PlayTheTuba]

Unless I am mistaken, Baltimore Brass brought a MW 97/2 not a 197. The 97 has a semi circle shaped leadpipe. The 197 does not. If there was a 197 at the Workshop, cool.

Meinl Weston 97/2 - A 4/4 Tuba
https://www.thomannmusic.com/melton_97_2_bb_tuba.htm

Meinl Weston 197/2 - A 5/4 Tuba
https://www.thomannmusic.com/melton_197 ... iginal.htm

Also I met spoke to a lot nice people when I brought the King Pit Tuba. I believe a kind sir by the name of John? (Seriously, please correct me if I misremembered your name), said that a Wegner stand can work but it is also quite heavy

And yes, I do have King Bits, as can been seen from this post. I also own a RT 44 and RT 82 since that post.

Mouthpiece Collection and How far do they Insert into a Reciever!
https://www.tubaforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=8338

[hrender]

Eastman
Eastman's new piston 4/4 BBb based on the "York" horns was killer and nobody showed it much love. It's a much better feeling horn than the EBB534 and I would be surprised if they can justify keeping both in a few years.

This is the EBB622?

[humBell]

Hi, guys, it's been a while.

....


So, that 56-year-old Miraphone was absolutely the best sub-$2K tuba at the Army Workshop, by an infinite margin, given that I don't think there were any other sub-$2K tubas for sale.

Rick "seems to be collecting 4/4 instruments again" Denney

Is sub $2k instruments an elephant room market deficiency that should be addressed?

I am still sad i missed it all yet again. The closest i've gotten was chasing down a craigslist sousaphone in eastern PA the same weekend that a friend going to the conference didn't have enough slack in his itinerary to chase down. (and as these things go, may not have had room in the car either, and that might have been my fault... strange how these things work out)

Mmmm Mirafone!

[bloke]

I wish I could get past all of these school repairs which haven't stopped flowing in this year, as they usually stop around October.

I've got some really fun stuff that I would like to finish getting all fixed up to sell.

I'm not going to say what any of it is, because I'll have five people asking me about each one of them and they're not ready to sell.

It would have been fun to have had all of those ready to go and to have brought them up there to add to the (remarkably) "good old instruments" selection - which reportedly above was in somewhat short supply.

It sounds like everyone had a great time as always.

[Rick Denney]

Eastman
Eastman's new piston 4/4 BBb based on the "York" horns was killer and nobody showed it much love. It's a much better feeling horn than the EBB534 and I would be surprised if they can justify keeping both in a few years.

This is the EBB622?

I’m pretty sure it’s the 825VG, but I didn’t study the tag and I don’t know their stuff on sight. I’ll check.

And, @humBell, there is always room for good old tubas that fit impecunious budgets for adult amateurs, but advance marketing helps with them. The temptation is to focus on military pros and the college kids that come to the workshop, but I bet we amateurs carry our own weight in sales.

Rick “not sure how well the dealers did overall” Denney

[graybach]

Eastman
Eastman's new piston 4/4 BBb based on the "York" horns was killer and nobody showed it much love. It's a much better feeling horn than the EBB534 and I would be surprised if they can justify keeping both in a few years.

This is the EBB622?

I’m pretty sure it’s the 825VG, but I didn’t study the tag and I don’t know their stuff on sight. I’ll check.

And, @humBell, there is always room for good old tubas that fit impecunious budgets for adult amateurs, but advance marketing helps with them. The temptation is to focus on military pros and the college kids that come to the workshop, but I bet we amateurs carry our own weight in sales.

Rick “not sure how well the dealers did overall” Denney

Speaking of which,
(Rick Denney’s “…not sure how well the dealers did overall…”),
I’ve always wanted to ask this question since I went to my first conference many years ago:

Do the instrument companies/dealers REALLY sell enough stock to make it worth their time and effort and everything else to go to a conference after factoring time away from the shop, travel/gas/transportation costs, etc., plus all their competition there?
I’m especially thinking of any dealers that might’ve flown themselves and their products to the conference in Spain this past year.

Or is it more of an exposure thing so that they get their name out there?

Because at any of the conferences I’ve been to, ITEC,
ITEC Regionals, TMEA, Army Band Tuba/Euphonium Workshop, there seemed to me to be a lot more people in the elephant room(s) interested in blasting Ride at fffff on the absolute biggest horn they could get their hands on, (and sounding like it was coming out nonstop from both ends of a very sick cow doing it ), than there were people seriously looking to buy a tuba or a euphonium, or anything else, for that matter.

For anybody who knows about the economics and marketing sides of this, thanks in advance for an answer.

[Mary Ann]

I had my own booth to attend to, so I only got to play a few things.

My favorite was the Norwegian Star that I bought from Dillon before the show even started. IMG_6549.jpg

Many have heard me rave about my NStar. I'm starting to think I have good taste in tubas.