Josef Meinl invents the modern F cimbasso?

[jonathanharker]

I have a question about the invention of the (modern F) cimbasso. Cliff Bevan, in The Tuba Family (2nd ed., 2000) wrote on p. 420: "in 1985 Josef Meinl of Neustadt an der Aich built a cimbasso for the Mannheim Oper. His instruments are now in use from Japan to the United States." Was Josef Meinl related to Gerhard Meinl? Was he part of what later became Melton Meinl Weston?

[bloke]

I recall at one of the big tuba shindigs of the past just about that time period Jim Self strutting out on stage and playing one.
He was playing some funky riffs and such on his.
He made up some funny name for it, but I don't recall the humorous name.

Perhaps some others here who are reading my response were in attendance as well.

I didn't address your original post directly, but I'm confirming that that's about the time period that they first started appearing.

[Bob Kolada]

Valved bass/contrabass trombones, whether straight or bent, have been around for over a century, here's a bent Bb from the early 1900s. There's a YouTube video from a bass trombonist who mostly plays period instruments now, he has a video playing an early 1900s bent 4 valve F that sounds really nice. I suspect the modernization* is giving them more valves with a bigger bore and perhaps a kicker or two, taking them from a bass role to a more contrabass role, i.e. 3rd trombone to 4th low brass voice.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AVw3iuha- ... YmFzc28%3D

Kalison used to make them in F, C and Bb (and also a tuba shaped cimbasso), most factory horns today seem to be 5 rotary valve F's. Cerveny and Miraphone used to make small bore straight F horns but I suspect the modern cimbasso, if identified as a large bore valved contrabass trombone*, originated in Italy.

There's been a ton of custom and homemade instruments. I believe Jim Self had an F cimbasso with a Yamaha 621 valve set and a Miraphone contrabass trombone with an additional valve section from a sousaphone. I think both can been seen in the cimbasso choir playing Finlandia video. I have a small bore Eb but it's definitely more of a valved bass trombone than a Godzilla soundtrack horn.

[bloke]

The ones that have been around forever (probably early 20th century is when most of the types that you're discussing were made, and most of those I've seen were made in Czechoslovakia) are mostly not much larger bore than a regular modern bass trombone, and the ones of those that I've played were pretty freaking stuffy with a pretty limited amount of decibel range.

[jonathanharker]

I recall at one of the big tuba shindigs of the past just about that time period Jim Self strutting out on stage and playing one.
He was playing some funky riffs and such on his.
He made up some funny name for it, but I don't recall the humorous name.
I didn't address your original post directly, but I'm confirming that that's about the time period that they first started appearing.

Yeah that's probably his "Jimbasso" that he got frankenmade from Yamaha YFB-621 parts, I gave it an honourable mention on the cimbasso article

[jonathanharker]

Valved bass/contrabass trombones, whether straight or bent, have been around for over a century, here's a bent Bb from the early 1900s. There's a YouTube video from a bass trombonist who mostly plays period instruments now, he has a video playing an early 1900s bent 4 valve F that sounds really nice. I suspect the modernization* is giving them more valves with a bigger bore and perhaps a kicker or two, taking them from a bass role to a more contrabass role, i.e. 3rd trombone to 4th low brass voice.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AVw3iuha- ... YmFzc28%3D

Kalison used to make them in F, C and Bb (and also a tuba shaped cimbasso), most factory horns today seem to be 5 rotary valve F's. Cerveny and Miraphone used to make small bore straight F horns but I suspect the modern cimbasso, if identified as a large bore valved contrabass trombone*, originated in Italy.

There's been a ton of custom and homemade instruments. I believe Jim Self had an F cimbasso with a Yamaha 621 valve set and a Miraphone contrabass trombone with an additional valve section from a sousaphone. I think both can been seen in the cimbasso choir playing Finlandia video. I have a small bore Eb but it's definitely more of a valved bass trombone than a Godzilla soundtrack horn.

Yes, I was imprecise. The "Verdi" trombone basso was conceived and built built by Pelitti c. 1880 for Verdi's last operas, in B♭ in the same bent "T" shape as the modern instrument. They were built in Italy and central Europe by Orsi, Stowasser, Červený and others, but their use more or less died out, even in Italy, by the inter-war period in favour of the tuba. The slide contrabass trombone in F with 2 valves (first conceived in 1929 in Berlin) appeared as a "cimbasso" model by Gebr. Alexander in the late 1950s, then Thein, and several other German makers by the 1980s.

I suppose I meant the invention of the "modern" cimbasso, meaning the "T" shaped instrument similar to the Verdi trombone but in F, which only appeared in the 1980s (distinct from the valve bass trombones in F in use since the mid 19th century, or the "cimbasso" model slide contrabass trombone in F with 2 valves). The "T" shaped instruments before then (excluding homebrew) were in low B♭. Rudy Meinl also make them in F, E♭, C, and B♭ but only since the 1980s.

Side note, I believe G&P Winds was established in Milan from Kalison's workshop and tooling when it closed in 2006, but I'm not sure how "direct" the line of descent was.

[bloke]

The instrument Self showed up with was not that bell front little baritone thing.
It was what we all think of today as a cimbasso.

It makes me smile to see that there are people who admit that these instruments we're using today - in the bore size range and in the configuration - have not been around that long. Of course there are things from 80 years previous to that that are related. All brass instruments are related. That said, the 1835 tubas don't look much like yorkophones.

[pjv]

The proof is in the pudding, wouldn’t you say?
Why were cimbassi practically extinct for so long (as in: almost nobody was using them)?
I believe for the same reason that valved (tenor) trombones aren’t that popular. Too stuffy. Which equals; no fun to play. Too much work. Also with intonation.
If there’s no market then the chances a company or builder is going to invest in improvements is slim.

Yes there is a larger market for valve trombones but very few companies have invested in improving them, Schagerl being one of them (a large bore tenor by the way). Heck my Olds flugabone plays better than most v-bones I’ve played. Is that because every little bit helps? (.508 bore instead of the very standard .500). Who can say.

I may be wrong, but I always thought the cimbasso rage started becoming a thing when the Hollywood boys (Roger, Tommy, Jim) started having Minick building some cimbassi. I remember Jim had a BBb sousaphone valve set, for example.

The modernisation is just all about improvements or attempts there of. I think most companies have increased the bore size too much, but the intonation and ease of playing is certainly better than most of the antiques out there.

[bloke]

Through dumb luck (comparing mine to both the $3XXX ones and the $2X,XXX ones I've played at elephant rooms - you know, those elephant rooms with the with sexy 265 lb. cigarette g... people strolling about) I'm pretty sure I stumbled upon the "sweet spot" for one of these (at least, when/if pitched in F...and I'm skeptical of those which are longer, as that's just a tremendous amount of cylindrical tubing - regardless of the bore size).

Once I stumbled across THE instrument (with no more knowledge than "that was obviously too large, yet that other was obviously too small" types of vague non-scientific/non-engineer-minded/non-acoustician-based observations), I was able to experiment and come up with THE (at least, for now) mouthpiece.

Many customers have played on it, but - with many/most - it's their first outing with one (so no points of reference) YET, everyone who has played it "took to it" (southern USA expression, or all-of-USA expression...?? ie. "zero learning curve") immediately...which speaks for the instrument, as well as the mouthpiece.

bragging...??
only about my access to the INSTRUMENT, and my LUCK.

[jonathanharker]

I've found your Shallowburger on my Červený 652 to be an excellent fit. The .715" bore is on the large side, but it's about as much fun as you can have with your pants still on when it's all going like the clappers at a Puccini gig

[jonathanharker]

Jim Self [...] made up some funny name for it, but I don't recall the humorous name.

Was it "tuba on a stick"?

[bloke]

Jim Self [...] made up some funny name for it, but I don't recall the humorous name.

Was it "tuba on a stick"?

Maybe it was Jimbasso, like someone said earlier.