bass and tenor trombone "doubling"

[bloke]

I've always viewed trombone players considering these to be a "double" as humorous.
I have a really large B flat tuba and smaller B flat tuba - far more difference in their sizes than the difference between a B flat bass trombone and a B flat tenor trombone - both of which are responsible for just about completely the same range, as one plays lower better and one place higher better (just like my two B flat tubas)... and yes, I use different mouthpieces with my two B flat tubas, but the fact that I have both of them doesn't mean that one of them is a "double"... and I don't "specialize" in one or the other of them.

Many trumpet players have or even carry a B-flat, a C, an E flat, and a piccolo... and they think of them as their "trumpetS", rather than any of them being "doubles"... and not even their flugelhorn or their cornet... even though (unlike the bass trombone and the tenor trombone) some of them are built to different lengths.

Trombone, tuba, or tenor sax would be considered "doubleS" for a trumpet player.

[BopEuph]

I've always considered an able bass bone player to be more like a lead trumpet player. Sure, a trumpet player who can play 3rd trumpet or lead isn't really a "doubler," but a 3rd trumpet player in any band likely isn't a strong lead player, and probably wouldn't call himself a lead player. I've always thought of the ability to play a bass bone is to also know and understand the role of the instrument. I haven't picked up a bass bone since I was a euphonium player in college, but I was awful on bass bone at the time. I just could never get the range on bass bone as easily on euph, and the triggers really played very different from piston valves.

I've wondered how I'd fare on bass bone now, but the paid gigs in this area are few and far between, it doesn't seem like the best financial investment.

[Bassboner]

I used to think that too. And truth be known, my main axe is tenor. I didn't start playing bass until about 12 years ago. Bass bone is a different animal. Here's why:

1) function. Tenor plays mainly harmonic lines, but does get a few melodic lines from time to time. Bass gets a lot of roots. Oom-pahs. This is part of how we distinguish a bass part from just a 3rd tenor.

2) air. On smaller tenors, you can play a whole phrase before you run out of air. On bass you can't do that. This is part of the reason for 1) above.

3) required range. Before say the '70s or maybe' 60s, "bass" parts would be written to maybe C under the staff. And bass trombones would be made with a single valve. Single valve bones have a gap of 1/2 step either side of B below the staff. But now, people write music requiring those notes, and to get them, you need 2 valves (or an E/Eb valve, or an F or G bass... Etc...) Plus, to get those lower notes with a more stable sound, a bigger taper was needed in the same tubing length. So more and more, basses became more specialized instruments that require more specialized players.

4) positions. Everybody thinks the trombone has 7 positions, but tenor players have to learn a different set of positions for every partial. So maybe 70 positions. Bass bones have to know all those and then 3 times as many - a set of positions for each valve. So ~ 210 positions. Most bass boners just say "Eff it" and play louder so everyone just tunes to them. Sooo much easier, and who is to say it's not the way things really should be after all?

5) valves. I've been playing bass bone for 12 years (tenor for ~55?) and I still get my fingers in a knot when going fast under the staff. Getting slurs with alternate positions on tenor is a developed art. Doing that on bass with all of those natural break options with the triggers is just mind blowing. Can't keep up.

6) ledger lines down. I've practiced reading ledger lines up for decades, along with tenor and alto and non-transposed treble. But give me more than 2 ledger lines down, and a tenor player just falls apart.

7) personality. Bass bone players aren't quite tubers, and they've kind of broken off from tenor players. It takes a different personality to be ok with just playing whole-note roots all the time, where your solo options are "Makin' Whoopie", while tenor players also get "Getting Sentimental Over You".

So bass bone is clearly a double to the point of requiring a split personality. That's dedication, and should definitely be met with remunification by the union compliant employers.

Just my 4cents, as a doubler.

[catgrowlB]

Bass trombone is my 'doubler' instrument, as a primarily tuba player. Trombone/bass trombone is a true double for a tuba player. As for bass bone being a double for trombone players, ehh, it's sort of a gray erea, imo.

Tuba players play sousaphones, and different pitched, different sized tubas, and don't really consider it 'doubling', its just adventurous. Playing a 6/4, 5-valve CC tuba to a 3/4, 3-valve BBb tuba is at least as much difference as a 2-trigger bass bone to a straight (no trigger) small bore, pea-shooter trombone

Modern bass bones are really just gigantic tenor trombones (both 'bass' and tenor trombones pitched in Bb, like the baritone horn & euphonium) with (usually) 2 triggers. Bass bone parts in ensembles are quite different than other trombone parts, though.

[bloke]

I know trombone players who mostly play tenor who also own a bass and - when they play their bass trombone - they play bass trombone as well or better than some of the bass trombonists around here who also on and play a tenor trombone.
Those mostly-tenor players - of course - know the six extra positions that involve the F attachment and those who own double rotor basses also know the (depending on dependent system or independent system) few or a few more additional positions involving the second rotor.

Yes, tuba is a double for a trombonist and trombone is a double for a tuba player... But I still don't consider bass trombone to be a double for a trombone player. It's just a bigger B flat trombone that plays low easier.

My tubas - that have five or six valves - have more valve combinations available than those that I have with three or four valves, and my great big B flat tuba sounds broader in the low range than the smaller B flat tubas.

[BopEuph]

This does remind me of a story Dave Steinmeyer once told on the subject of false tones.

He was once hired to sub in on bass bone and the player he was subbing for loaned him a bass because Dave never owned one. But the horn was apparently awful. So after the first set, Dave ran out to his car and grabbed his peashooter tenor and played the gig on false tones, and was able to hit the notes much more cleanly, and nailed the gig.

[tubanh84]

I've always considered an able bass bone player to be more like a lead trumpet player. Sure, a trumpet player who can play 3rd trumpet or lead isn't really a "doubler," but a 3rd trumpet player in any band likely isn't a strong lead player, and probably wouldn't call himself a lead player. I've always thought of the ability to play a bass bone is to also know and understand the role of the instrument. I haven't picked up a bass bone since I was a euphonium player in college, but I was awful on bass bone at the time. I just could never get the range on bass bone as easily on euph, and the triggers really played very different from piston valves.

I've wondered how I'd fare on bass bone now, but the paid gigs in this area are few and far between, it doesn't seem like the best financial investment.

This description is interesting - likens it more to being a low versus high French horn player.

[Bassboner]

There's bass trombone, and then there's bass trombone. It's easy for a tenor player to blow a couple Ds or Ebs and sound good. Real bass bone players can get around all the way down. I can't do that easily, and I don't know any other tenor players who have really mastered the bass. It takes serious dedication and a lot of actual practice and most likely real instruction to do that. My issue is that I'll practice tenor as much as I want. but I never actually practice bass. I'll play tuba more than I practice bass bone. I just don't like bass bone that much. The only time I play it is in ensembles. I play bass out of necessity, and tuba out of curiosity. I don't call myself a tuba doubler because even though I own a tuba and play it, I don't really rise to any serious level with it. I also own a banjo, an acoustic bass guitar, recorder and a melodica.

I play quartets with 3 other retired pro tenor players, and none of them will touch bass. That is in fact how I got stuck with it, and I'm not all that great on bass, I'm just better than they are. Tenor talent does not transfer to bass, it's a very different thing to develop. Embouchure, air supply, sound concept, articulation, etc... If you know someone who has really done it, it's more of the exception than the rule.

How many Dave Steinmeyer's do you know?

[bloke]

All the same stuff could be said about bass tuba and contrabass tuba, but that's not a double. Rather, it's an expectation.

I've had tenor players apologize to me for the way they were playing bass trombone in an orchestra section, because they don't play very often, but they were actually some of the better and more tasteful bass trombone players I've worked with.

slightly off topic:
You know who bass trombone players really hate?
It's tuba players who can get around on a cimbasso and cover bass trombone parts (cuz it cuts them out of a gig) .

I played this pops concert a few years ago with a big band as the featured artists. The string section, individual orchestral woodwinds, one horn player, and some of the brass players joined forces with key players of that big band to do a bunch of arrangements that were basically Nelson Riddle style orchestrations. The lead trombonist they brought with them reportedly whispered to one of the orchestra's trombone players, "Is that your orchestra's tuba player? There are five or six bass trombone players I could have brought up here." I was told that he shut his trap after we played through the first chart.
Also (truth be told, and notice that I'm not mentioning any names) that substitute lead trombone player wasn't really prepared to play the charts. We had worked with the same band a few years earlier and done the same thing, and - coincidentally - a substitute lead trombone player had to be brought in that time as well (who hadn't even played the book before, and that PREVIOUS substitute lead trombone sub was about twice the player, and played every note as if every note was his own.)

and - just fwiw - cimbasso isn't a double for tuba either... It's just a weird little skinny tuba. As long as it's a good one (and there aren't too many of those) a tuba player can take to it in about five minutes.

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[bloke]

Bass bone parts in ensembles are quite different than other trombone parts, though.

completely agree, and tuba covering serpent and ophicleide parts is different from tuba covering tuba Clydesdale church charts and tuba Tchaikovsky charts.

[gocsick]

As an aside.. while my son was visiting different colleges and talking to tuba professors, he specifically asked about keeping up with lessons on double bass as a minor instrument. One program specifically required 2 years of study on a minor instrument.... most students did trombone or euphonium as natural counterparts to tuba... but the professor said for students that are struggling with their tuba studies they will game the system and assign them "Bass Tuba" as their secondary instrument and "Contrabass Tuba" as primary... so there are CC and F tubas "doublers" out there.

Edit: Also wasn't there another thread where it was argued that "doubler" to does/should imply certain level of proficiency?

[Nemo]

It's probably important to consider the difference between solo and ensemble playing too. A tenor player can probably get around on a bass ensemble part pretty well, but bass solo rep is on another level that I would consider qualifies as a separate area of study.

Someone mentioned lead trumpet vs section trumpet as well, I think that applies since while the lead trumpet is not a physically different instrument it's an entirely different set of skills from section playing.

But of course tuba players are expected to play all our various roles in every style without doublers pay. I've known people who consider euphonium to not be a double for the tuba since it's called a tenor tuba, so we should just know it...

[claf]

I wonder if the reason is just that trombone players better negociated the terms with the union than the tuba players

[bloke]

I wonder if the reason is just that trombone players better negociated the terms with the union than the tuba players

At least in the US, it seems to be regionally and venue variable.

In symphonic music, it's almost never considered to be a "double".
Sometimes, in theater music (Broadway musicals, etc.) it might possibly be considered to be a "double", but (mostly) when one player is covering two books, and switching back-and-forth.

Tuba is tuba is tuba.
"Principal tuba" is the only tuba, and involves playing "a" tuba.

OFF TOPIC, YET NOT: funny stuff about first performances:
Often there are obvious things about first performances, as the parts are transparently written for those first-performances players.
- Scheherazade's tuba part was obviously written for a first-performance player with a 3-valve E-flat tuba.
- Bizet, Georges: L'Arlésienne, Suite No. 2,Farandole - ' fairly obvious that the 3rd trombone player was the only one who was a competent player.
...quite a few other examples...

[claf]

I have to play Scheherazade quickly then

[ghmerrill]

All this is pretty funny. I'm not sure what the point is, but there are probably genuine bass trombone players (and perhaps a lot of other trombone players) reading this, and just laughing their socks off.

If you think that tenor trombone and bass trombone are very close to being the same instrument, that's because you've never played both of them -- or certainly never played both in more than a casual way, or maybe you've never played either in any kind of "genuine" circumstances. This is particularly true if you really want to exhibit facility in the full range demanded either in symphonic or jazz/big band music. Comparisons to tuba (and other valved instruments) are pretty meaningless. A tenor trombone player doubling on bass (in other than a very undemanding and casual sense) is nothing like a tuba player doubling on (say) euphonium.

I don't have an "argument" for this, or anything I can say that would convince anyone of anything. And I don't see a point in going into further detail (particularly since I'm not sure what the point is here). Just do it -- in either an orchestral context or (probably better) a big band or jazz or rock context --- and then tell me what you think. There's nothing quite like genuine experience -- especially in a case like this -- to be genuinely enlightening. Or short of that, spend some time on TromboneChat and see the discussions oriented specifically towards bass trombone issues and techniques. You'll see pretty quickly why trombonists view the bass (and similarly the contra-bass and alto) as a genuine "double".

[bloke]

Funny how alto trombone (so much different from tenor/bass trombone) is not considered to be a "double", and - in symphonic music - is simply considered to be "up to the player".

As far as laughing at me questioning with this stuff is concerned, they're always going to be people laugh at people who question things and then respond to the people who question things with the answer "well... because".

Of course this thread was meant to be a troll, but trolls are so often quite revealing, and self-fulfilling.

How true is this stuff?
- A lot of people who play tuba do it because they were a big kid, and the band director thought they could carry a sousaphone.
- A lot of people who play bass trombone are the ones who played the third trombone part in high school because they didn't play as well as those assigned to the first and second parts, but stuck with it and eventually became good players.

[ghmerrill]

As I said, I wasn't sure what the point was and didn't want to assume it was a troll. Also, some who read and responded to it might have had some genuine interest in some of the significant issues. It took me some time and effort to understand them. I'm still not sure what the point is, notwithstanding comments about a lot of people, kids, and band directors.

[bloke]

non-troll:

In the past, I worked regularly with a very high-profile bass trombonist.
During our lunch breaks (between rehearsals) and chats, he told me that - in high school - he never tried out for any "honor bands" or did anything extracurricular related to "band".

[Bassboner]

Two more things to add:

Rare is it when you find a bass bone player who uses lip slurs, and doesn't think every articulation is a big hat accent. It's just too hard to use your air efficiently on a bass bone to do more than one or two lip slurs in a row, and it's just too tempting to slam every note for all it's worth. Most bass bones are designed and built to be very inefficient with air. Bass bone is laden with testosterone, and just super prone to aggression. Go the ATW and listen to the college tbone choirs play - tenor bone accompanied by (bass bone) percussion section. Tenor players (can and should) live by lip slurs, and the instrument is more about subtlety.

Second, bass bone is just not interchangeable with tenor. Conn 6h and 72h - not interchangeable. 88h and 72h maybe. 88h and 62h not. Eb tuba and Bb tuba are mostly interchangeable, although the brits use them as different instruments. In the US no one really cares if you show up with an F, Eb, C or Bb. They probably won't be able to tell for the most part. But if you try to play a bass bone part on a 6h, everyone will know, and you won't be able to do it.

Anyway, I know it's just a way to pick an argument, but it's a real question that I think people really ask.