BBb for wind band (Lidl)

[claf]

Behind this very generic title, here are my current thoughts.

Following this topic, I gave it a lot of thoughts, and for several reasons, I think I will go towards a BBb.

My reasons are:
- big-ish Eb are quite expensive (or quite beaten)
- a lot of wind band sheet musics are in Bb
- in my band library, most C and Eb sheet musics have disappeared
- if I get lent a marching bass, it would most likely be a Bb sousaphone rather than an Eb helicon

And even though, for the reasons #2 and #3, I can read in tenor clef, I think there is no point to buy another Eb and keep having the same mental load.

Now forward to the "instruments to try" choice.

I could go towards something like a Wessex Dragon/Viverna/Luzern, but I keep asking myself "why not a Cerveny" ?

All the xx3 models (603 / 683 / 693 / 783 / 883) seem interesting.
One of my biggest questions so far is if I should go to a 4 valves or if I need a 5th valve. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like the 5th valve would get little use.

There is also a used ABB 691 which is 30 minutes away from my place that I could go try, but it's a little expensive for it's state and bigger that I would like it to be.

[Rick Denney]

To support your reasoning:

British-style brass band music is transposing, and written specifically for Eb and Bb basses. But military/concert band/wind ensemble music in other settings is almost always written in concert pitch, and one just learns the fingerings as needed for the chosen instrument.

Most band composers probably had Bb tubas in mind, but longer ago than four or five decades would also have included octave divisions to accommodate the limited low range of Eb tubas that often had only three valves.

Bb is therefore the default choice in most places, but pros in high end groups are probably playing C tubas.

Band music assigns two different roles to tubas, in addition to occasionally providing a unique or solo voice. They are either the bass of the brass and therefore an extension of the trombones, or they are the bass of the band filling what in an orchestra would be string bass duties. Depending on the music, a section of German-style instruments can put out the brass power sound, and a section of American-style short and fat tubas can put a floor under the band. Most amateur bands in the US have a mix, but in Germany the instruments will usually be rotary tubas as a matter of tradition.

Any tuba that one can play in tune and in time is going to be welcome in most amateur bands. (Again, British-style brass bands are different—there is more tradition there and more competitiveness and judgement.) I normally play a Bb Kaiser rotary tuba, but sometimes play a fat Holton grand orchestral tuba in Bb. Lots of amateurs own standard-size rotary tubas as a default, and any such that has decent intonation and tone will be fine. That would include Cerveny tubas, of course.

At least go try out that 691.

One issue I have with Cerveny of old is that the brass tends to be soft and dent-prone. They require extra care.

I think you are right in thinking a fifth valve is at least optional. Some insist on a fifth valve for solving some tuning problems, but I’ve never had a fifth valve on a Bb tuba and I know how to play the alternate resonances to get an in-tune low Eb. It’s extremely rare that band music requires lower notes than that. (Competition-level brass band music is a different story). 5-valve Bb tubas are pretty rare on the used market in any case. I’ve certainly never felt like I was missing something.

I would also look into used Miraphones and VMI/B&S and their stencils. Playing condition and the individual traits of the instrument in question will be as important as what’s engraved on the bell.

Rick “who has owned and used all of the above at one time or another” Denney

[claf]

Thank you, that is a very interesting read.

Just one thing: here in France, sheet music in wind band is almost always transposed for tuba.
Sometimes there is a concert pitch tuba part, but there 99.99% of the time a Bb tuba part written in Bb (either treble clef or bass clef, I've seen both).
So far, in roughly 25% of the part I've seen there is a concert pitch tuba part. A little less for Eb tuba.

The only transposing instruments that are played concert pitch here are trombones (but some players might learn it in Bb in some places, not related to brass band) and F tuba.

[claf]

Going to try the 691 tomorrow. It might be too big, but it woukd be stupid not to go try it.
Otherwise I'm tempted to buy a new 684, either from Cerveny or Lidl.

[BramJ]

Here in The Netherlands we transpose aswell, but I did learn to read parts in C, opens up a lot of options for study material

I have the predecessor to the Cerveny 691 (Amati B&F 69). It is definitely big but it is great to play.

[claf]

@BramJ big to hold or big to play ?

[BramJ]

Big to hold, mine is quite thin material so it is not that heavy. This might be different with more modern versions.

[bloke]

Here's a truncated comment for a very truncated scan of your first post, so it might not even be a good response:

I've seen some pretty nice looking three plus one compensating 1960s or 1970s English made BB flat tubas for sale in the USA on eBay and other places for not high prices.

They're just not big sellers over here.

Some of them look very nice which would indicate to me that the valves are probably good too.

I have one that I need to sell sometime, but it's a later one, like an '80s Sovereign or something.

It's shiny and the valves are great, but somebody used it as a drum (dents), so I need to take it all apart and make it nice and smooth at least before thinking about selling it. Eventually it'll make a nice tuba for someone because it's in a Winter case.

Anyway you might want to think about a 3 + 1 with good valves from the USA. Even with the tariff and shipping, it might be a really good instrument for a low price and really appropriate for a brass band.

[claf]

@bloke I see a lot of 3 valves compensatings, and sometimes 3+1 as well, it's still part of the equation but I don't feel that good playing a top action instrument, and for comfort reason I would prefer a rotary horn.

[bloke]

I get it.

I have a three valve compensating that's waiting for a four valve compensating valve section (that's in a cardboard carton).

Without having to reach around for the 4th valve, for me personally it's pretty comfortable with just the three compensating valves, and particularly when I put on the 17 inch upright belt which I made detachable. (It was originally and still is a 24-in recording Bell instrument.)

When I put the original 24 inch recording bell on, it tries to pull me out over sideways out of my chair. LOL..
...YET (with the original recording bell) it puts out an amazing gigantic tuba sound and straight out in people's faces, rather than disappearing up into the rigging or clouds of a music hall/auditorium or up into actual clouds (if outdoors).

Everything that is good has some negative characteristics, and - if we must choose only one - we must choose carefully, yes?
.............
One time, a local community band asked me to help them out on an outdoor concert and I grabbed the three valve compensating with the 24 inch recording bell. A full-time tuba local tuba player and his wife actually went to the event (a very good friend). He stayed to the end of whatever march we were playing. I assumed he was going to say something smart aleck, but all he said was "That really sounds terrific, man!"
Of course, I've never really heard what that tuba with that bell sounds like, as we really can't hear the complete sound of a recording bell tuba (because we are back behind it). It's good to know that it sounds as good as I suspected it did.

[claf]

Everything that is good has some negative characteristics, and - if we must choose only one - we must choose carefully, yes?

Yes, and I don't plan of having "one tuba for each situation".
Already did that on trumpet (I had 5 Bb until I sold one yesterday, 1 C trumpet, 3 Bb cornets and 1 Eb cornet) and it's definitely more cumbersome on tuba
I might keep my Eb, will see.

But yes, a kaiser would be a "statement maker", but would it be rational ?

[bloke]

It's difficult to find kaiser B flats that play easily in tune, not to mention for money that most of us can afford to surrender.

The first one that I bought was a gorgeous over half-century old (but new looking) Miraphone model 90 BB-flat. It had no mechanical wear and no lacquer wesr. It even had it's original close fitting hard case - a case that (were it to be made today) would probably cost a fortune.

It was 43 inches tall with a 17-1/3 inch (44cm) bell diameter.
It had the classic kaiser tone, and a 21.2mm bore.

Per typical with many old tubas and particularly old kaiser tubas, the fifth partial D, C# so very flat that there was no hope for playing them with no valves and second valve. (The tuning slide pulled out very far for A=440 tuning, so I could have built a device to trigger that slide in for those pitches - but I'm just not a fan of main tuning slide triggers.) Playing them with alternate fingerings was very stuffy. The 4th circuit was so short (much like the model 86) I could barely play the fourth valve pitches in tune and of course the 2-4 pictures were unusably sharp. The rotor diameter was so large that there's no way I could have played fast passages with that instrument...those rotors: too much surface area and too heavy.

The same manufacturer has learned a lot since then.
For a little more than twice the used tuba money that I paid for that early '70s instrument that looked new, I purchased their (perhaps introduced 15 years ago or so...??) model 98, which is playable with all of the beginner method fingerings (absolutely no alternates required), yet it has fourth and fifth valves, and I tricked it out (slang for "customized") for even more opportunities for fine-tuning pitches.

Rather than a classic kaiser bell, the bell is more like that huge bell on the Cerveny (that model called?) 601... Actually, the 98 bell is exactly the same taper as an American Holton model 345 bell (a model which hasn't been made in fifty years).

I'd recommend this model to anyone seeking this general classification of instrument, as long as they can find one used, because I think the new ones are around (or more than) 20,000 euros. The problem is that they didn't make very many of them, and now will make them to order, but they're completely handmade. Being handmade, they only way about 24 lbs. - except mine probably weighs more because I've added some fine-tuning gadgetry to it.

I'm only able to own this instrument because the fairly wealthy person who bought it new was very nice to me, regards to the price for they sold it to me, and even gave me quite a few months to scrape up the money.

[claf]

The 691 I will try is announced at 2800€ and can probably be negociated down.
I really think a 684 would be a better fit for my needs, but for less than half the cost it would be stupid of me to not even give it a try.

[claf]

Tried it today.

I was expecting something bigger, coming from my small Eb, but it's definitely manageable.
SN puts it in early 80s.
Some dents than can be repaired, bottom bow protection needs to be resoldered, bell has a lot of undenting work to do, including the full bell close to the rim. All that is manageable.
BUT the leadpipe has already been repaired twice (2 different patches) and already requires a third repair, there is an air leak and a bad vibration.

It would require a big price negociation and a lot of money put to the shop to make it playable, and I think the leadpipe does not need a patch, but a partial of full replacement.

That's a shame because the valves seem in great shape, despite being very noisy.

I will probably pass my turn, what do you think?

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[arpthark]

That can be repaired, but you have the luxury of choice, especially considering the 2,800 euro price tag. I would keep looking.

[claf]

The miniball on a new one is enough to justify the investment, but I need to sell another trumpet for that.

[Thomas]

A new leadpipe ist not as expensive as one might think. And also a good repairtech can fix a lot. I had both done (new leadpipe due to intonation issues, patches on a cracked leadpipe) with success at fair costs. But this tuba is too expensive in this condition. If you look you can get similar instruments without these issues (just maybe noisy S-links and in need of a 500€ valve Job) in Kleinanzeigen in Germany between 1500-2500€ ready to play. For half the price I'd consider this tuba...

[arpthark]

A new leadpipe ist not as expensive as one might think.

FWIW, I got quoted $400 for a new Cerveny leadpipe recently which included shipping/tariffs to the USA. Bent/pre-formed nickel silver. Probably cheaper in Europe.

[claf]

I thought it would be more expensive for a new one.
But that, its installation, a lot of undenting/unbending work and a huge bath would probably cost around 1k€, I feel like the horn would at least need to be negociated to 2k.
And you will have a "good" early 1980s horn with missing lacquer for 3k.

And that is if you have no bad surprise later on.

[dp]

The miniball on a new one is enough to justify the investment, but I need to sell another trumpet for that.

sell the trumpet and get the new horn