Low note help?

[PvPHorde]

I’ve been playing BBb tuba for 4 years and still can’t go lower than “pedal” Eb (the one four lines and a space below the staff). Please help lol it’s embarrassing when we do pedal tone exercises in marching band and I’m on the false Eb instead of pedal Bb.

[iiipopes]

First, as a philosophical point, I question the necessity or efficacy of pedal note exercises in marching band where nothing below regular 2-ledger line plus a space open BBb will carry off the field to the audience anyway. But since your music director insists on them, so be it.

That said, many times the problem with the false pedals, privileged tones, whatever you want to call them, etc., all boil down to some fundamental aspects:

1) the "big, easy, air." If the breath support has insufficient volume but too high velocity, then according to Bernoulli's principle the air velocity over the embouchure simply will not allow the embouchure to vibrate the lowest frequencies. The solution is to take a large breath, think the big "Oh" in the oral cavity, drop the jaw internally while maintaining the embouchure, and carefully support the air flow without letting the velocity get too high. This is especially hard to do in a field marching band, where players may be encouraged to get as much volume as possible out of the instrument, which is a function of the velocity of the airflow.
2) the horn itself. If the horn has either obstructions, leaks, braces in the wrong places, etc., then the anti-nodes, or points of compression of the air which define pitch according to static wave theory, will not allow the horn to resonate these low pitches. I have had more than one instrument that needed help in these aspects to finally get the privileged tones down to the true pedal Bb. One instrument, a mid-70's Besson New Standard 3-valve BBb compensated tuba, never could get there because the wraps of compensation loops simply impeded the antinodes too much.
3) Solutions? Besides making sure the horn is in good shape, try this: work your way down to the privileged Eb at a moderate dynamic level. Then while continuing to blow the note, back off the volume, think the big "Oh" inside your mouth, drop your jaw, and depress the 2nd valve to see if you can get the D below that to come out as a slurred note, no articulation which will interrupt the air flow. If it cracks, try again. If the D comes out, practice until it is consistent to re-train your breath support, and then try the next lower note. And so forth to the open true pedal BBb.
4) Remember that the fingerings for the privileged tones, starting with the open Eb, are different than regular fingerings. On a typical 3-valve BBb instrument the privileged tones are fingered:
Eb - open
D - 2nd valve
Db/C# - 1st valve
C - 1st & 2nd valve
Cb/B nat (if the horn will actually speak this note, which even the best horns rarely do) 2nd & 3rd valve
True pedal Bb - open
5) wavelength of the note. If you are doing these indoors, if the room is not large enough, it simply won't work, because the fundamental length of the sound wave for the pitch cannot develop. Years ago when I lived in a different house with both the front door and the back door opening to the great room of the house, I quickly discovered I could not go below privileged D with both doors shut; with one door open I could get privileged C; with both doors open I could finally get the true pedal BBb. (We will save the discussion of what was effectively changes in speaker cabinet porting for another day.)

Even now, fifty years after first picking up a sousaphone as a high school freshman, I still have days that the embouchure just doesn't want to work down. I stop, review my fundamentals, and slowly warm into the pitches. And if both doors to the band room where I rehearse with a regional community band are closed, I can't get them there, either, until the doors are opened.

Hoping this helps, Good Luck!

[Mary Ann]

That is just fascinating about the size of the room and the fundamental frequency wavelengths literally not fitting.
I wonder how much my living room contributes to what I can do --- it is a large space with a high ceiling, and the tuba is easy to play in there. People trying to do that extreme low range in typical college practice rooms, I wonder how they do it.
I have a Facebook friend who cannot play a pedal. I never thought about the room he is playing in having anything to do with it. Wow. So if someone has a blockade on pedals, they should go play in their yard and see if it makes a difference. Might not be them at all but the space in which they are playing.

[catgrowlB]

I’ve been playing BBb tuba for 4 years and still can’t go lower than “pedal” Eb (the one four lines and a space below the staff). Please help lol it’s embarrassing when we do pedal tone exercises in marching band and I’m on the false Eb instead of pedal Bb.

You may need a 'shift' in your embouchure to play down in the pedal register. I have a 'shift' or 'change' in the positioning of my embouchure down around that low Eb or D so I can play down into the lower pedal notes. What I do is slightly jut my jaw forward, the mouthpiece moves down a bit, and mostly use bottom lip for those very low pedal tones.

Everyone is different, but experiment and see if doing any embouchure shift helps you get further into the basement register

[Grumpikins]

I agree with all things said above, have one thing to add. When I was playing on a daily basis, notes - including pedals - spoke easily. Now I play maybe once or twice a week and it takes me a half hour or so for my embochure muscles to warm up enough for me to play low D, C, Bb and down to pedal notes. So that tells me my embochure is out of shape.

Take away is, you need to be practicing every day to build the muscles and muscle memory.

[iiipopes]

I’ve been playing BBb tuba for 4 years and still can’t go lower than “pedal” Eb (the one four lines and a space below the staff). Please help lol it’s embarrassing when we do pedal tone exercises in marching band and I’m on the false Eb instead of pedal Bb.

You may need a 'shift' in your embouchure to play down in the pedal register. I have a 'shift' or 'change' in the positioning of my embouchure down around that low Eb or D so I can play down into the lower pedal notes. What I do is slightly jut my jaw forward, the mouthpiece moves down a bit, and mostly use bottom lip for those very low pedal tones.

Everyone is different, but experiment and see if doing any embouchure shift helps you get further into the basement register

That is another way of increasing your oral cavity and moderating the "big air" breath support to help intonate the pitches.

[iiipopes]

Take away is, you need to be practicing every day to build the muscles and muscle memory.

Indeed.

[iiipopes]

That is just fascinating about the size of the room and the fundamental frequency wavelengths literally not fitting.
I wonder how much my living room contributes to what I can do --- it is a large space with a high ceiling, and the tuba is easy to play in there. People trying to do that extreme low range in typical college practice rooms, I wonder how they do it.
I have a Facebook friend who cannot play a pedal. I never thought about the room he is playing in having anything to do with it. Wow. So if someone has a blockade on pedals, they should go play in their yard and see if it makes a difference. Might not be them at all but the space in which they are playing.

I once was in a band that the drummer simply could not understand the theory of wavelength. He was always saying he could not hear his bass drum. Of course, behind the set, he heard the articulation of the bass drum pedal and that is all. He could never fathom that all he was supposed to hear sitting right on top of it was the articulation because at the back of the bar the mortar was shaking loose out of the wall and patrons were losing their fillings from the bass drum being too loud in the mix.

[bloke]

I would suggest experimenting with moving your front teeth farther apart (opening your mouth more).

If this results in you (every once in awhile) getting a piece of one of the lower pitches, continue to work on this.

Probably the only reason to be able to play a few pitched below D is to be able to play D well.

OK... I just remembered that -:a couple of weeks ago - I played a difficult band piece that actually had octave B flats, so I guess the written range for the tuba continues to expand downward.

[iiipopes]

5) wavelength of the note. If you are doing these indoors, if the room is not large enough, it simply won't work, because the fundamental length of the sound wave for the pitch cannot develop. Years ago when I lived in a different house with both the front door and the back door opening to the great room of the house, I quickly discovered I could not go below privileged D with both doors shut; with one door open I could get privileged C; with both doors open I could finally get the true pedal BBb. (We will save the discussion of what was effectively changes in speaker cabinet porting for another day.)

Opening the door will make the room volume bigger and lower the Rt value meaning more nodes at lower frequencies.
But since a pedal note has very little power in the fundamental most power is in the harmonics which also go up to higher frequencies because of more noise (more higher frequencies) being created when playing pedal notes.
I have no problem playing pedal notes in a 13x13x8 room.
Did you tried to play in a corner of the room, bass is more louder there?

I have played tuba in more rooms, whether concert halls, places I've lived, college practice rooms, band rooms of all sizes, etc. These are my experiences with many different tubas and sousaphones.

[iiipopes]

I would suggest experimenting with moving your front teeth farther apart (opening your mouth more).

If this results in you (every once in awhile) getting a piece of one of the lower pitches, continue to work on this.

Probably the only reason to be able to play a few pitched below D is to be able to play D well.

OK... I just remembered that -:a couple of weeks ago - I played a difficult band piece that actually had octave B flats, so I guess the written range for the tuba continues to expand downward.

Yes. Another way of saying drop your jaw internally to enlarge the oral cavity.

[Mary Ann]

I have yet to see a concert hall that is so small that the wavelength of any pedal will not fit.
But a 6x8 practice room, maybe that concept is valid.
I think I remember practice rooms even smaller than that when I was in school -- more like 4X6.
The ones in the "old" music building at IU (In 1967) were significantly more resonant than those in the then-new round building, and I chose to practice in the old building, because of the perceived less effort to get a sound.

[iiipopes]

Opening the door will make the room volume bigger and lower the Rt value meaning more nodes at lower frequencies.
But since a pedal note has very little power in the fundamental most power is in the harmonics which also go up to higher frequencies because of more noise (more higher frequencies) being created when playing pedal notes.
I have no problem playing pedal notes in a 13x13x8 room.
Did you tried to play in a corner of the room, bass is more louder there?

I have played tuba in more rooms, whether concert halls, places I've lived, college practice rooms, band rooms of all sizes, etc. These are my experiences with many different tubas and sousaphones.

And how do you solve that problem when playing a concert? You hardly can put someone by the door to open it when you need to play a pedal.
Maybe you play them to "pretty", sneaking in some extra wind noise might help.

I play in a community band, mostly outdoor concerts. The one notable indoor concert is the Christmas concert which is in a large enough church that this is not an issue. Moreover, I am the only tuba. So I do not gratuitously drop the octave because all it causes is mud and does not knit with the rest of the low brass and woodwinds, and there is nothing in the repertoire lower than F 4th valve below open BBb. So your question is moot.

[Mary Ann]

Just to muddy the waters, I think the frequency content does have something to do with both the player and the volume level.

[Rick Denney]

When you figure it out, let me know.

Based on what I can play above low Eb, I should be able to play pedals strongly. Stated another way, I've heard guys play strong pedals that cannot do what I can do above low Eb.

So, I must have some hole in my fundamentals.

The amount of practice does dictate how low I can go, but even when I was playing every night of the week I could not play strong pedals.

I generally can play acceptable alternate resonances for low Eb and D; lower than that I have never been asked to go.

I worry about it less now than I used to.

Rick "avoids competitive environments, but then old enough to have that choice" Denney

[Mark]

Today, inspired by this thread, I took my Miraphone 191 into a closet just big enough to hold me and the tuba. I played pedal Bb and worked my way down to pedal Eb. No problem playing those notes in a small space.

[bloke]

For crazy low, I have to use more and more top lip. Since the space between my nose and lips is not very wide, the rim of my mouth tends to get shoved into my septum (nose cartilage).

This prompted the origin of the (narrow, and rounded down on the outside) #2/ rim profile, but that rim profile offers several advantages, other than playing pitches that no one ever asks us to play.

The lowest pitch that I'm usually able to produce is the "Bosendorfer piano" low F. G-flat is typically much stronger for me.
To play that F really well on my really large B flat, I have to be practicing a lot. It's easier with the 4/4 Holton with the King valve section, or my F tuba (all six rotors depressed).

almost rhyme: resistance is an assistant

It never occurred to me to use a closet to create resistance.

[catgrowlB]

For crazy low, I have to use more and more top lip. Since the space between my nose and lips is not very wide, the rim of my mouth tends to get shoved into my septum (nose cartilage).

Strange, it's the opposite for me. For the low pedal register, the mouthpiece slides down my embouchure, my jaw juts out a little, and I use more and more bottom lip the lower I go. When I play higher and higher, the mouthpiece moves up my embouchure and uses more top lip until it pretty much presses against the bottom of my nose for very high notes well above the staff.

I think this just shows how everyone has a different embouchure, different physiology, and difference between upstream and downstream embouchures

[bloke]

For crazy low, I have to use more and more top lip. Since the space between my nose and lips is not very wide, the rim of my mouth tends to get shoved into my septum (nose cartilage).

Strange, it's the opposite for me. For the low pedal register, the mouthpiece slides down my embouchure, my jaw juts out a little, and I use more and more bottom lip the lower I go. When I play higher and higher, the mouthpiece moves up my embouchure and uses more top lip until it pretty much presses against the bottom of my nose for very high notes well above the staff.

I think this just shows how everyone has a different embouchure, different physiology, and difference between upstream and downstream embouchures

That's good info.

My personal mouthpiece position for the top lip doesn't change at all until I'm playing around really low F, but the bottom of the rim of my mouthpiece (as I play lower in the written range of the tuba) slides across the indention above my chin as I spread my teeth apart more and more for the low range, and then finally (as described - when I need even more space for those crazy low notes (that we are never asked to play by composers) - the rim has to has to ride up as well, because the indention above my chin ends, and there's no more room to slide the mouthpiece down on that indention.

I still believe that many mouthpiece rims are too wide, feature too much contact surface against the face and that the inner corners of many rims are too sharp. I believe it's important for (specifically) a TUBA mouthpiece's rim to be able to slide easily across the player's face with minimal friction - avoiding soreness, and promoting flexibility (due to the fact that producing a beautiful broad tone in the low range requires spreading our teeth so far apart, compared to any of the other brass instruments' embouchure techniques).

When you look at my selection of stainless steel rims, I offer several profiles (curvatures combined with widths) in several donut sizes and - when you add Dave Houser's rim profiles - there are a ton more, but the #2 rim profile (that I came up with and tried out early on in this "mouthpiece thing" - as an "I wonder if...") is the only one that I'm interested in using anymore, though I use it on different instruments with a 32.3mm, and a 32.9mm inner ("cup") opening. In the past, I also used 33.2mm - but I really try to be pretty honest with myself, and I've pretty much decided that that next size up really doesn't benefit me personally with any configuration of my mouthpieces or instruments.

(To each his own, and I still sell some of those really wide rounded Miraphone style rims to some players. I expect that not much of the contour those really wide rounded rims touches players' faces - as long as they don't mash, being that they're so rounded, which may be why people are able to make those things work...?? One shape I really don't like trying to play on is really flat rims with really sharp inner angles. To me, those really pin my face down and restrict flexibility quite a bit... but Dave has a whole set of those available for people who like them, I can certainly get them from him to supply with my modular mouthpieces and threaded rim new brass mouthpieces, ...I used to stock those flat and sharp cornered rims, but - as time has gone by - the demand for that profile seems to have diminished quite a bit.)

[Mary Ann]

My lesson with Doug Elliot covered this; basically two ways people play. Those with a high set (more upper lip) will (on horn) push the mouthpiece up to play high and down to play low (which I do.) Those with a low set will do the opposite -- push down for high and up for low. Bloke is this. Doug said either one works but to avoid switching lips in the middle of the range. This was during the lesson when he planned to discover that my dystonia was caused by using the wrong embouchure for my face, which he didn't. (Off topic but here I go -- I think that when he fixes someone's dystonia by changing their embouchure, he fixed it by changing the brain path that was corrupted to one that isn't. Jan Kagarice figured this out, and while I think her method of fixing it is not applicable to many, the concept is correct.)
I think there are those on smaller cups who can manage the effect by "aiming" the air stream up or down within the cup (which changes the lip position) but those are few. I watch high level tuba players change the angle for range all the time.