Beginner "baritone" question (and WTB too, I guess)

[bort2.0]

My son just finished his first year of band, so it's been interesting to remmeber what beginning band is like.

Question -- why do so many "baritone" players start on the bell-forward, front valve instruments? When I was in school, I always figured it was because it's just what they had from the 70s, and used them in marching band or parades. I've always hated those things, and while I guess they're good enough to learn on, I think they quickly become "the wrong thing", in favor of a proper upright bell/upright valve euphonium. I guess I was surprised to see the bell forward horns being used. And brand new ones, too.

Is there some other benefit to having a 10-12 year old playing one of those, instead of a proper euph?

For the WTB lart... I'm helping one of my son's friends find an instrument for next year. He rented a (brand new) bell forward euph this past year. I'd like to help him find regular euph like a Yamaha 321 or maybe a King 2280 (I think that's the model?), or something solid and non Chinese. To me, I think that's the best path, get to the real thing as quickly as possible. There's no actual "need" for the bell forward thing, is there?

PS, let me know if you have any leads on good condition used euphs. Probably looking at the $500-1000 range.

[arpthark]

I didn't know they even made new ones. Baritone players in my school played the bell-front horns in middle school and by high school they moved on up to the King 2280s we had.

I assumed it was just due to finite resources. We had five or six bell-front oldies and two or three newer Kings, so of course the older/more advanced players would play the newer/better horns.

The bore on these is something like .562", which is smaller than the YEP-321 (~.570") and smaller than modern euph bore, which is around .580-590" (larger in comp. 4th tubing), so it could be argued that it's easier for younger students to get a characteristic sound (ehh...)

I have four or five of the 3-valve bell front horns if anybody's looking...

[bloke]

Maybe we should raise Mr Falcone from the dead, so we can then argue with him about what is appropriate and what isn't, equipment wise.
Around here, I'm not seeing many of those anymore, except in the lowest funded schools which are in areas where people don't have their butts taxed off. The 60-year-old instruments are still holding up, and I'm still repairing them for them.
What I object to is my government supplying expensive-to-struggling-taxpayers four valve instruments to 5th graders, being that they're heavy - which makes them unwieldy for those little children, and those little children tear them all up every year - surely much more than they actually play them (or ever depress their fourth pistons).

[prodigal]

I'm borrowing one of these golden oldies for my 3rd grade son, because nobody wants to use one. An old Olds. Valves are good and fast, though it's missing a screw apparatus on the detachable bell, but it sounds pretty decent IMHO.

I like the valves on the front, to train him up for tuba. (I still haven't shown the PT-1 yet. I told him he has to earn it.)

[bloke]

I have a really good condition Olds here with the typical giant plastic chunk missing from the case.

no lacquer... A beautiful solid dark brown...$250 for anyone who's interested. I'll wrap it in bubble wrap, discard the case, and box it up - if a possible buyer would pay the cheapest possible FedEx ground shipping.

[Stefan A]

It really comes down to what the school has. When I was teaching band, I got a few Yamaha 321's for the program. But we had a bunch of bell forward baritones that got used regularly. It's just because they're there and money to replace instruments is not flowing. Once we had enough 321's for the students during the day, we just sent the baritones home so they would have something at home to practice on. I imagine they're still being used a bit.

[bort2.0]

Thanks! I always figured it was the "school horn that exists" vs "school horn that doesn't exist," but wow, that brand new bell forward was a head scratcher.

Thanks for clarifying.

FWIW, I never had access to a 4-valve anything until college. I think I only ever saw a few 4-valve horns at all through HS in honor bands and stuff -- a Karl Ziess, a Cerveny Piggy, and a single Miraphone 186. All of which were played by obnoxious kids that I out-seated, and would proclaim "this tuba is a piece of..." but would also decline my offer to switch horns with them.

[Schlitzz]

I’m voting for a 321. It’s nice and light, small shank. Might be worth swapping out the receiver for more mouthpiece choices down the road. They hold value. Still wish I had mine. But that was a long time ago. I’m gonna also advocate for the

https://www.ergobrass.com/euphonium/ .

My Stewart stand was awesome.

[gocsick]

I have an 1946 York (listed as a YARK, because it has the triangular O on the engraving)... 3 valve front action bell front. I actually really like the sound on it. My daughter used it in 5th and 6th grade at home, and played on a similar King model at school. I don't think she would have had the air to fill a large bore compensating euphonium. Then she stole my Chinese compensating euphonium for 7th grade honor band and switched to tuba for in school and did just fine. I have been playing the York again and am reminded how much fun a 3 valver can be. You really are not missing a whole lot without the 4th valve... How much community band level music really hits the low range hard?

Personally, I am glad the school keeps those old Kings and Conns going at the beginner band level.

[anadmai]

as a kid in jr. high who first picked up a baritone/euphonium, there was no way in hell I'd play a bell front. Ewwww. No.

I played a Bundy 3v...which I found out recently was made by besson. I remember others playing the bell front types and I couldn't do it. They were horrible.

Still to this day I do not like FA type instruments.

[bort2.0]

as a kid in jr. high who first picked up a baritone/euphonium, there was no way in hell I'd play a bell front. Ewwww. No.

I played a Bundy 3v...which I found out recently was made by besson. I remember others playing the bell front types and I couldn't do it. They were horrible.

Still to this day I do not like FA type instruments.

I think they're maybe a little better for parades, or 1970s style marching bands. I think the "baritone" in general is just kind of an awkward instrument, whereas a proper upright bell euphonium is far more pleasant all around.

The German oval euphs with their in-between angled bell... I have a hard time making sense of those without Lederhosen.

[bloke]

Many of the wind band instruments have increased in size (over the past 60 years) too much (in my view).

In addition to the fact that there are too many alto and high-tenor voiced instruments in wind bands already, the 21st century wind band sonority is too "mezzo" and blurred - unless it's some sort of absolutely top-level band (whereby the amount of energy produced allows the symphonic/orchestral (extra-large) instruments to resonate as they are actually designed to do so.

Clarinet students (due to their private/studio instruction advice) are using mouthpieces that offer a very mellow type of resonance (again, unless pushed to their top sound production potential). Those are supposed to take the place of the violins, yet (unlike violin resonance) there's no shimmer in modern-day clarinet sections.

Bell-front (American "crossover") baritone horns - smaller than most British-style euphoniums (other than YEP-201 and clones), yet larger than British and continental European "baritones" - offer more high overtones compared to British-style euphoniums and - with the bell-front design - more of those overtones are heard, rather than lost in the shell or clouds of an auditorium.

Then, these "almost bass" large-bore tenor trombones, played with near-euphonium-size mouthpieces, no less...

These are the instruments used in symphony orchestras, so they must be better.

Millennials and younger have no idea about that to which I refer, because they've never experienced it.
Technically, even my oldest daughter isn't even (quite) young enough to be classified as a "millennial".

getting off-topic, so IGNORE THIS:

proposed law:
Local, state, and federal (when subsidizing local schools, which is always) government shall only supply 3-valve brass instruments (compensating 3-valve are allowed), non-F-attachment trombones, bass clarinets limited with range only to low E-flat, and single F or single B-flat horns to school systems, along with entry-level percussion instruments. (Baritone saxophones with range to low concert C are allowed, due to those being the only type made.) Anything with higher-grade features must be donated by individuals, for-profits, and non-profits, or furnished by the parents of individual students.

proposed marching contest rule:
No electronics (neither AC nor DC voltage), no stringed instruments, and no props (stand-alone unmanned visual effects which are not deemed to be musical instruments) are allowed on the field nor in stadium or field area. Moreover, nothing that isn't continuously carried and operated by one person (who must not remain stationary) is allowed on or adjacent to the field.

[Bob Kolada]

Yamaha made a slightly larger bell front horn, I played one in HS and liked it; our band director would play it while conducting a few times after we got it (small school=small band) and he sounded magnificent on it. Frankly, while I don't have a lot of time on the American baritones I like the sound and don't get the hate. Bring back the classic American baritone, the bass saxophone, various sizes of sarrusophones,... There's a wonderful photo at the US Army Band buildings of the band from 1920 or so, giant Bb tubas, a bass sax, a contrabass sarrusophone, very cool photo.

I'd love to get a 4 valve King, have the leadpipe/receiver swapped out to a large shank and redo the 4th valve tubing to have a long pull. I have a shallow, larger mp (a Yamaha 60B) that works pretty well in euphs without the 'tenor tuba' sound my contrabass trombone mps give. That would be a fun horn to mess around on. Some of those German polka baritonists are incredible, I think most of them play Kings (a guy I used to play with said his music shop got an email about ordering a dozen of them) but there are European made horns in this style. I swear I saw a few videos years ago of 5 inline front piston valve horns, maybe even a 6 inline valve horn. None of the guys playing them used the extra valves though...

I played a 'restored' removable bell Conn that was pretty rough, I put the blame on the work but also got the impression the removable bells don't play as well as fixed bells. I played with a gentleman for a few years who had a fixed bell Olds that he'd owned since the 70s, he had a wonderful sound.

[Bob Kolada]

I have an 1946 York (listed as a YARK, because it has the triangular O on the engraving)... 3 valve front action bell front. I actually really like the sound on it. My daughter used it in 5th and 6th grade at home, and played on a similar King model at school. I don't think she would have had the air to fill a large bore compensating euphonium. Then she stole my Chinese compensating euphonium for 7th grade honor band and switched to tuba for in school and did just fine. I have been playing the York again and am reminded how much fun a 3 valver can be. You really are not missing a whole lot without the 4th valve... How much community band level music really hits the low range hard?

Personally, I am glad the school keeps those old Kings and Conns going at the beginner band level.

A guy in my old brass band had a silver York ALTO horn in that configuration, I don't remember how it played or sounded but it was visually a very charming little horn. For community band I think American baritones are just fine as long as you figure out a way to pull for 123 combos and they're probably fantastic for Sousa counter melodies and circus music barn burners.

[bloke]

I do have an ugly brown Yamaha 321 euphonium that I could sell.
It's not the ugly brown one that I have been playing, but it's another one out in the shop.
It has a good case, but one of the latches is going to have to not match, because they moved to that plain rectangular draw bolt latch rather than the complicated Samsonite luggage style latch, and you can't get any replacements for those fancy older style latches that they had.
The case doesn't have any cracks.
I don't want to refinish this euphonium, but I'd be willing to get it clean and dent free.

[ronr]

I have a very part-time job for the local juggernaut music company in Minneapolis. One of my jobs is to prepare instruments to go out to new players in the fall. They are all getting upright bell instruments.

[donn]

My favorite brass ensemble video Concert de François Thuillier Elephant Tuba Horde, le 27 août 2016 aux Rendez-Vous de L'Erdre, includes a bell front baritone quartet at 42:56. They use them for a meaty, overdriven sound, that probably wouldn't have been quite the same with the bass saxhorns they play most of the time. There is a euphonium in the mix earlier, so Bb family demo.

[Thomas]

Get an upright Euphonium. I had to start with a front bell instrument which was the worst to start with, even though it was a high quality Miraphone. It's harder to hold, play and march with. In addition the sound goes everywhere but not to the players ears which probably was the worst effect for a young boy having to get confidence in his own playing. Also at this time (early 90s) here in Germany this was also a quite unusual instrment and gave me strange envying looks. My grandfather gave me this (his) front bell Bariton to play and got himself a normal Kaiserbariton as he also struggled with the hearing effects...

Btw. this had at least the lucky side effect they put me on the tuba around the age of 12 or 13. I had a 4 valve instrument with a large bell and when the tuba player was absent in rehearsal, I was asked to play the 1st tuba as I could read bass clef. Somehow low and pedal notes never were an issue for me. So the conductor, a professional tuba player decided I would play tuba from then on.

[MN_TimTuba]

The German oval euphs with their in-between angled bell... I have a hard time making sense of those without Lederhosen.

Brett,
Guess I'll have to start bringing lederhosen to church!
Tim

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[Bassboner]

My favorite brass ensemble video Concert de François Thuillier Elephant Tuba Horde, le 27 août 2016 aux Rendez-Vous de L'Erdre, includes a bell front baritone quartet at 42:56.

I love the guy with the mohawk and piercings. Almost makes the bell-front stuff look cool.
Seriously, though, that goes to show instrument styles/fads don't mean nearly as much as just making music. Even guys on bell-front baritones can sound cool.

I have to admit I did turn my nose up when a guy with a big BBb recording bell wanted to play in my quintet. New Orleans jazz, ok. Long haired Gabrielli maybe not so much. It's a shame, but this kind of prejudice is still acceptable.

I had a Conn 24i bell-front for a while, which I liked aside from the horn being pretty beat up. They made some nice instruments in that config.