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[adsteve]

Just throwing it out there, Mike did have a severe playing injury towards the latter part of his career. Whether or not it was dystonia is unknown, at least to me. The assertion is Jacobs was dealing with some issues, which can be heard in recordings where he has shakiness than can be passed off as a wild vibrato.

But he first time I heard the 6/4 assertion was from Jan Kagarice, a well known and well respected dystonia practitioner. She and her team have met with, and helped rehab, hundreds of people with dystonia and playing injuries. Unfortunately she doesn’t come to these forums to weigh in since she’s out in the field doing the work. But I’m inclined to trust her since she has yet to lead me astray in my own recovery.

I also believe there is a genetic component to it. Some folks seem to be predisposed and others can go their whole careers doing everything ‘incorrect’ and never get it. That is a big wild card factor in this issue.

Playing issues and injuries are not always the same thing as focal dystonia, just to be clear. A lot of playing-related problems can improve with rest, retraining, better setup, or improved overall chop health. Focal dystonia is different because it is generally understood as a neurological, task-specific motor disorder, not simply “weak chops” or a normal playing injury. In brass players, embouchure dystonia can involve the lips, face, jaw, tongue, air leaks, tremor, or loss of normal control while playing.

The players mentioned did have issues, but I would be careful about putting all of that under the FD umbrella. With Jacobs, for example, there are a lot of variables. His playing changed as he aged, and his health history may have played a role, but I would not automatically call that focal dystonia. His vibrato was also part of his playing for a long time, not just something that appeared at the end of his career. You can hear elements of that earlier in his career as well, including from his Pittsburgh years before Chicago. Jacobs played in Pittsburgh Symphony under Fritz Reiner from 1939 to 1944 before joining the Chicago Symphony.

Bill Bell also had a playing style on his Album that some people might describe as rough around the edges compared to modern standards, but that does not mean he had focal dystonia either. That is really the point I am trying to make: there is still a lot of gray area around this topic, and I do not think it is fair to generalize that a certain size tuba, a certain setup, or shaky chops automatically causes or equals FD.

Toby Hanks is a good example of why I think we have to be careful with broad claims. He was not known for playing huge equipment in the same way people talk about 6/4 York-style tubas, and yet he did deal with focal dystonia. Focal dystonia eventually took away his ability to play tuba.

So I absolutely respect the work being done in this area, and I am aware of Jan contributions. I just think the conversation needs nuance. Equipment can certainly affect efficiency, tension, and playing habits, but saying one type of tuba or mouthpiece “causes” focal dystonia feels like too broad of a conclusion. Again this just my humble opinion/observation. I’m not an authority on the subject matter but I do question it.

I want to point out the language I used when talking about Mike and Arnold. For Mike, I said ‘severe playing issues.’ I know several people with more inside information than I do who have used the term dystonia. However, I do try to be careful about what I say about certain folks. As for Jacobs, again, I mentioned that is the assertion. And the assertion was made by people who are an authority on the subject. I try to be careful and respectful of who I mention and how I mention them. I also wouldn’t put this out there if I wasn’t confident in where it came from. Even though I have been living the dystonia life for 13 years, I still do not claim to be an expert and will always yield to those in the field doing the work to heal it and make a living treating it.

In terms of painting with broad strokes, we agree on that. As I memes, this is not a silver bullet issue. You won’t find the factors that caused it or the same factors that will cure it in anyone. Plus you have the genetic predisposition that is a will always be a wild card.

Also, I sincerely hope I’m not coming off as rude here, it truly is not my intent. If anything, I do appreciate the conversation.

[Porky]

Just throwing it out there, Mike did have a severe playing injury towards the latter part of his career. Whether or not it was dystonia is unknown, at least to me. The assertion is Jacobs was dealing with some issues, which can be heard in recordings where he has shakiness than can be passed off as a wild vibrato.

But he first time I heard the 6/4 assertion was from Jan Kagarice, a well known and well respected dystonia practitioner. She and her team have met with, and helped rehab, hundreds of people with dystonia and playing injuries. Unfortunately she doesn’t come to these forums to weigh in since she’s out in the field doing the work. But I’m inclined to trust her since she has yet to lead me astray in my own recovery.

I also believe there is a genetic component to it. Some folks seem to be predisposed and others can go their whole careers doing everything ‘incorrect’ and never get it. That is a big wild card factor in this issue.

Playing issues and injuries are not always the same thing as focal dystonia, just to be clear. A lot of playing-related problems can improve with rest, retraining, better setup, or improved overall chop health. Focal dystonia is different because it is generally understood as a neurological, task-specific motor disorder, not simply “weak chops” or a normal playing injury. In brass players, embouchure dystonia can involve the lips, face, jaw, tongue, air leaks, tremor, or loss of normal control while playing.

The players mentioned did have issues, but I would be careful about putting all of that under the FD umbrella. With Jacobs, for example, there are a lot of variables. His playing changed as he aged, and his health history may have played a role, but I would not automatically call that focal dystonia. His vibrato was also part of his playing for a long time, not just something that appeared at the end of his career. You can hear elements of that earlier in his career as well, including from his Pittsburgh years before Chicago. Jacobs played in Pittsburgh Symphony under Fritz Reiner from 1939 to 1944 before joining the Chicago Symphony.

Bill Bell also had a playing style on his Album that some people might describe as rough around the edges compared to modern standards, but that does not mean he had focal dystonia either. That is really the point I am trying to make: there is still a lot of gray area around this topic, and I do not think it is fair to generalize that a certain size tuba, a certain setup, or shaky chops automatically causes or equals FD.

Toby Hanks is a good example of why I think we have to be careful with broad claims. He was not known for playing huge equipment in the same way people talk about 6/4 York-style tubas, and yet he did deal with focal dystonia. Focal dystonia eventually took away his ability to play tuba.

So I absolutely respect the work being done in this area, and I am aware of Jan contributions. I just think the conversation needs nuance. Equipment can certainly affect efficiency, tension, and playing habits, but saying one type of tuba or mouthpiece “causes” focal dystonia feels like too broad of a conclusion. Again this just my humble opinion/observation. I’m not an authority on the subject matter but I do question it.

I want to point out the language I used when talking about Mike and Arnold. For Mike, I said ‘severe playing issues.’ I know several people with more inside information than I do who have used the term dystonia. However, I do try to be careful about what I say about certain folks. As for Jacobs, again, I mentioned that is the assertion. And the assertion was made by people who are an authority on the subject. I try to be careful and respectful of who I mention and how I mention them. I also wouldn’t put this out there if I wasn’t confident in where it came from. Even though I have been living the dystonia life for 13 years, I still do not claim to be an expert and will always yield to those in the field doing the work to heal it and make a living treating it.

In terms of painting with broad strokes, we agree on that. As I memes, this is not a silver bullet issue. You won’t find the factors that caused it or the same factors that will cure it in anyone. Plus you have the genetic predisposition that is a will always be a wild card.

Also, I sincerely hope I’m not coming off as rude here, it truly is not my intent. If anything, I do appreciate the conversation.

Definitely not coming off rude at all. I appreciate your responses and honesty on the subject at hand. I talked to a FD expert a year ago about the Jacobs claim and he dismissed it as not that. I don’t know the Mike sander’s situation so I can’t comment on it. It’s alittle annoying when players make generalizations of someone having it when it could just be a myriad of other factors.

[Porky]

So I absolutely respect the work being done in this area, and I am aware of Jan contributions. I just think the conversation needs nuance. Equipment can certainly affect efficiency, tension, and playing habits, but saying one type of tuba or mouthpiece “causes” focal dystonia feels like too broad of a conclusion. Again this just my humble opinion/observation. I’m not an authority on the subject matter but I do question it.

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying this. Think of a red sports car where the driver always goes 15-20 mph over the speedlimit and they don't slow down even when a cop is nearby. They may never get a ticket or pulled over ever in their life. Or you could have someone (happened to me in August), driving to teach a new student, taking a road I have never taken and the speedlimit sign is blocked by a tree and I get pulled over for going 35 (road before was 35mph and did a Y interchange), and when the officer asked how fast I was going, I said the speedlimit which is 35mph (which I was informed was 25mph).

I do agree these horns can cause trigger symptoms of FD

I get the point you’re trying to make, but I don’t think the sports car analogy works very well here. A speeding ticket is circumstantial; focal dystonia is neurological. Those are very different things.

My issue is not with saying equipment can affect efficiency or tension. Of course it can. My issue is when that gets framed, even indirectly, as certain tubas or mouthpieces causing FD. That is a much bigger claim and needs to be handled carefully.

There are players who developed FD without playing large equipment, and many players who played large equipment their entire careers without developing it. So I still think the more accurate statement is that equipment may contribute to inefficient habits or trigger symptoms in certain people, but it should not be generalized as a cause.

[russiantuba]

I get the point you’re trying to make, but I don’t think the sports car analogy works very well here. A speeding ticket is circumstantial; focal dystonia is neurological. Those are very different things.

My issue is not with saying equipment can affect efficiency or tension. Of course it can. My issue is when that gets framed, even indirectly, as certain tubas or mouthpieces causing FD. That is a much bigger claim and needs to be handled carefully.

There are players who developed FD without playing large equipment, and many players who played large equipment their entire careers without developing it. So I still think the more accurate statement is that equipment may contribute to inefficient habits or trigger symptoms in certain people, but it should not be generalized as a cause.

People like Jan Kagarice have spent decades studying the triggers and compiling data on causes and how to fix. If you look at statistics, a red sports car is going to be pulled over more frequently than a silver supercompact SUV with the same person and same driving tendencies, but one person might defy the odds with the same equipment. I know adsteve and have had a few others close to me develop playing issues. One of my teachers had vibrational angioedema that slowly brought an end to his playing career. Some do everything right and shouldn't get it by what we know, but something triggers the neurological "paralysis"--and there are several triggers.

However, some triggers include overworking and overall inefficiency in the breathing and articulation, which Jan has fixed in several musicians outside of tuba.


FWIW--When I was studying with Roger Rocco (more for mental mindset and Jacobs pedagogy), I can confirm that Mike Sanders was indeed going through some playing issues, which I believe was from muscular overuse but I can not confirm. When I was heeing and hawing about studying, I was informed greats like Mike Sanders was going through issues and sought Roger out. Mike is a player that I always considered to be one of the elite orchestral musicians that you didn't hear mentioned as much, as he simply just did everything better than most tubists. Seeing how he sought Roger out was a convincing factor. As for Jan Kagarice students, many of her clients/students keep their study quiet, but two I know who have been vocal on her teaching and helping through recovery were Phil Smith and David Vining.

[Porky]

I get the point you’re trying to make, but I don’t think the sports car analogy works very well here. A speeding ticket is circumstantial; focal dystonia is neurological. Those are very different things.

My issue is not with saying equipment can affect efficiency or tension. Of course it can. My issue is when that gets framed, even indirectly, as certain tubas or mouthpieces causing FD. That is a much bigger claim and needs to be handled carefully.

There are players who developed FD without playing large equipment, and many players who played large equipment their entire careers without developing it. So I still think the more accurate statement is that equipment may contribute to inefficient habits or trigger symptoms in certain people, but it should not be generalized as a cause.

People like Jan Kagarice have spent decades studying the triggers and compiling data on causes and how to fix. If you look at statistics, a red sports car is going to be pulled over more frequently than a silver supercompact SUV with the same person and same driving tendencies, but one person might defy the odds with the same equipment. I know adsteve and have had a few others close to me develop playing issues. One of my teachers had vibrational angioedema that slowly brought an end to his playing career. Some do everything right and shouldn't get it by what we know, but something triggers the neurological "paralysis"--and there are several triggers.

However, some triggers include overworking and overall inefficiency in the breathing and articulation, which Jan has fixed in several musicians outside of tuba.


FWIW--When I was studying with Roger Rocco (more for mental mindset and Jacobs pedagogy), I can confirm that Mike Sanders was indeed going through some playing issues, which I believe was from muscular overuse but I can not confirm. When I was heeing and hawing about studying, I was informed greats like Mike Sanders was going through issues and sought Roger out. Mike is a player that I always considered to be one of the elite orchestral musicians that you didn't hear mentioned as much, as he simply just did everything better than most tubists. Seeing how he sought Roger out was a convincing factor. As for Jan Kagarice students, many of her clients/students keep their study quiet, but two I know who have been vocal on her teaching and helping through recovery were Phil Smith and David Vining.

I don’t disagree that there are multiple triggers, and I absolutely respect Jan’s work. My point is more specific than that.

I’m not saying equipment is irrelevant. A tuba or mouthpiece can absolutely influence efficiency, workload, breathing habits, articulation, tension, and overall playing mechanics. I’m fully on board with that.

Where I’m pushing back is the jump from “equipment can be part of the equation” to “certain equipment causes focal dystonia.” Those are different claims.

FD is a neurological/task-specific disorder, not just a simple overuse injury or bad-equipment problem. So anecdotal cases of players having issues or seeking help from Jan, Roger, or anyone else don’t really prove that a particular horn or mouthpiece is causal. They prove that great players can run into serious playing issues and that retraining can help.

I think the more accurate framing is: equipment may expose inefficiencies, contribute to overuse, or become a trigger in certain players who are already vulnerable. But it should not be generalized as the cause of FD, especially when plenty of players have developed FD on smaller equipment and plenty of players have spent entire careers on large equipment without developing it.

That’s the distinction I’m trying to make. I’m not dismissing triggers or Jan’s experience. I’m just saying we should be careful with causal language around the topic.

[russiantuba]

Porky, I think it comes back to this statement Tony makes:

In 2012 I was diagnosed with early onset task specific focal dystonia. When I went to Jan Kagarice to help me, she pointed to her file cabinet and said, “You see these files? They are all tuba players whom I have helped. They all have some things in common that got them to me, and one of which is that they all play 6/4 York-type tubas.”
-----

I would say Jan is the foremost expert on this, and I don't think she is saying it caused it, but shes noting the similarities and have noticed other players have had issues and how she would make the claim to be cautious.

Warren Deck did an hour zoom call on this and I attended it, and I asked him about the larger horns causing his "task specific focal dystonia", and he mentioned he didn't believe it was a cause. (I never correlated the two until recently and noticed his condition became apparent when he was moving up equipment size). However, during the era that Warren Deck got FD, it was a career ending diagnosis, and not so much anymore, as there has been a lot of study on it even from neurologists and people like Jan. Warren had specialized disability insurance from when he did woodwork, where if he cut a finger off or had a serious injury, that he would receive pay for life, so he seriously limited how much he was teaching, as his teaching between schools had to be under 10% of his total pay if I recall correctly. When he was diagnosed with dystonia, the insurance considered it to be an equivalent condition. He seemed content with the decision and his abililty to move on in life.

[Porky]

Porky, I think it comes back to this statement Tony makes:

In 2012 I was diagnosed with early onset task specific focal dystonia. When I went to Jan Kagarice to help me, she pointed to her file cabinet and said, “You see these files? They are all tuba players whom I have helped. They all have some things in common that got them to me, and one of which is that they all play 6/4 York-type tubas.”
-----

I would say Jan is the foremost expert on this, and I don't think she is saying it caused it, but shes noting the similarities and have noticed other players have had issues and how she would make the claim to be cautious.

Warren Deck did an hour zoom call on this and I attended it, and I asked him about the larger horns causing his "task specific focal dystonia", and he mentioned he didn't believe it was a cause. (I never correlated the two until recently and noticed his condition became apparent when he was moving up equipment size). However, during the era that Warren Deck got FD, it was a career ending diagnosis, and not so much anymore, as there has been a lot of study on it even from neurologists and people like Jan. Warren had specialized disability insurance from when he did woodwork, where if he cut a finger off or had a serious injury, that he would receive pay for life, so he seriously limited how much he was teaching, as his teaching between schools had to be under 10% of his total pay if I recall correctly. When he was diagnosed with dystonia, the insurance considered it to be an equivalent condition. He seemed content with the decision and his abililty to move on in life.

That’s actually closer to the distinction I’m trying to make. If Jan was noting a commonality among the tuba players in her files, I don’t have an issue with that. Patterns are worth paying attention to, especially from someone with her experience.

My concern is how that pattern gets interpreted. “Several players who came to me played 6/4 York-style tubas” is not the same thing as “6/4 York-style tubas cause focal dystonia.” That’s correlation, not causation.

Even the Warren Deck example seems to support that distinction. If he himself said he did not believe the larger horns were the cause, then I think we should be careful not to imply more than the players or teachers involved are actually saying.

I’m completely fine with the cautious statement: large equipment can demand more efficiency, can expose bad habits, and may contribute to overuse or tension in certain players. That is reasonable.

But FD is still a task-specific neurological disorder, and the research seems to treat it as multifactorial, involving things like repetitive skilled movement, overuse, individual predisposition, stress, injury history, and motor-control changes. So I just think we should separate “possible contributing variable” from “cause.”

So yes, be cautious with equipment. I agree there. I just don’t think the evidence supports generalizing that 6/4 horns or certain mouthpieces cause FD.

[catgrowlB]

When I studied with Toby he had a 4/4 Holton cut and Yamaha 822 F. I have on my practice room wall an old ad from Mirafone with him and his 184. I'm told he had a B&S F in the early 80s.

What he played his year in Minneapolis I don't know. But I do know he referred to big tubas as "pillow-phones".

Being an Eastman student of Don Knaub and around Roger Bobo in the studio probably influenced his concepts and clarity was a regular focus of our lessons. In conversations after he started getting answers for his playing issues I do think he was in his head a bit. He was able to do incredible and musical things easily and as we get older, do those things remain easy? That was one of the points of releasing his Sonata CD, to prove to himself he could still play.

Spoiler, yeah he could

Yeah, he used the Yamaha 822 F on the 'Elegy for the Whale', recorded in 1996. There is an insert pic of him with the YFB-822 in 1996. He added that and (I think) a couple other pieces to his 'Sampler' recording, re-released on CD afterwards. The original release of that recording (on LP) was in the 1970s. When he came to my school I had asked him what tubas he used on that recording. He told me he used a Holton 4/4 CC and a B&S F. The front cover shows a young Toby Hanks smiling with long hair and his B&S F in his hands.
I can only surmise he used those tubas in the orchestras he was playing in.
Looking at photos, it looks like he used a Miraphone 184 CC in the NY Brass quintet back in the day.

He made it clear to me that he had focal dystonia when he visited around late 2001 / early 2002. But he picked up my Holton Eb and played a 2 or 3 octave scale flawlessly up and down after not playing for a couple weeks. He told me his focal dystonia was that he couldn't tongue/articulate anymore, but he could still slur, and still had his range.

He certainly left a couple great recordings ('Sampler' and 'Sonata') showing some of the most polish and musicality I've heard

[arpthark]

FD is a weird topic for me. I’m almost positive I had/have some type of it, but I am 10 years removed from the audition circuit and don’t play in any stressful environments anymore, which is where it cropped up (actually, in the practice room preparing for those environments). There was a period of time where I couldn’t attack a middle G without cracking it and had the shakes between middle G and low C. I hyperfixated on it which made it worse.

If I’m out of practice or haven’t been playing much, those types of symptoms still occasionally crop up but I just sort of separate myself from them and acknowledge them impartially instead of focusing on them and they go away.

Also, anecdotally, playing on smaller equipment helps, and (weirdly) playing BBb tuba helps. I almost never have those issues on BBb. I probably have CICCT (conservatory-induced CC trauma).

[adsteve]

FD is a weird topic for me. I’m almost positive I had/have some type of it, but I am 10 years removed from the audition circuit and don’t play in any stressful environments anymore, which is where it cropped up (actually, in the practice room preparing for those environments). There was a period of time where I couldn’t attack a middle G without cracking it and had the shakes between middle G and low C. I hyperfixated on it which made it worse.

If I’m out of practice or haven’t been playing much, those types of symptoms still occasionally crop up but I just sort of separate myself from them and acknowledge them impartially instead of focusing on them and they go away.

Also, anecdotally, playing on smaller equipment helps, and (weirdly) playing BBb tuba helps. I almost never have those issues on BBb. I probably have CICCT (conservatory-induced CC trauma).

I can play euphonium and trumpet virtually symptom free. I also traded in my moderate sized tubas. I’m now on a Yamaha 621F and a Conn 2J CC tuba. It has really helped reduce my ticks and spasms. Also, the decade of hard work! But the smaller instruments do help.

This is another reason I tend to think there is something to the notion that big instruments don’t help. I am just not sure if it is the horn, or the habits a larger horn can promote.

I also tend to be impacted by the amount of pressure there is when I perform. Which has taken a fair amount of therapy to help me go into a high expectation performance with low expectations of myself.

[russiantuba]

Also, anecdotally, playing on smaller equipment helps, and (weirdly) playing BBb tuba helps. I almost never have those issues on BBb. I probably have CICCT (conservatory-induced CC trauma).

I think Jan recommends smaller equipment for recovery as I have heard (for some it doesn’t manifest on other instruments) but the BBb issue intrigues me. It was either in that Deck Zoom meet or something I read by Bobo at the same time (pretty sure it was Deck) that some advice on FD would be to not bend the lips to get a note in tune.

In general, I find I have to move and adjust pitch more on CC tubas than BBb. As many keep this under the radar, I wonder if conservatory trained musicians in Germany or lands where BBb tubas are prevalent have less cases.

I’ve always been intrigued on pedagogical differences and similarities in instruction globally, and if it is something that is being taught or a trend in North America that is leading to more cases, it would be interesting. I do know it exists elsewhere before people assume I don’t think it does… … but to the degree of prevalence and research on that would be interesting for long term research.