Butler 11 pound sousaphone

[jose the tuba player]

No videos of them playing it but looks like an interesting project.

https://butlertrombones.com/sousa/

[bloke]

I could be wrong but I believe I recognize the same valve section which is on the JP brass sousaphone, which I sell for less than that this amount in silver plate with a hard case.

I'm just not used to seeing $10,000 plastic sousaphones, regardless of how high-tech or lightweight.

I hope they sell a ton of them and become stinking rich doing it.

[jose the tuba player]

I could be wrong but I believe I recognize the same valve section which is on the JP brass sousaphone, which I sell for less than that this amount in silver plate with a hard case.

I'm just not used to seeing $10,000 plastic sousaphones, regardless of how high-tech or lightweight.

I hope they sell a ton of them and become stinking rich doing it.

Interesting, I spoke to the John packer reps at namm this year and they said they were unwilling to sell valve sections by themselves. Me and my new repair guy haven't had any luck finding a valve section for a project that's reasonable. He found a factory in China offering the valve section by itself close to the cost of importing the whole tuba straight from jinbao.

[gocsick]

Cool project but putting on my materials science engineering professor hat for a minute, I have one really big concern.. and that is the bonding between the valve block and the carbon fiber components...

The coefficient of thermal expansion mismatch...
Carbon fiber laminate CTE can be: near zero, or even slightly negative depending on fiber layup direction (shrinks ever so slightly as it heats up).

Brass: ~19 ppm/K.


So thermal cycling creates interfacial stresses.
Potential long-term issues: bond creep, adhesive fatigue, microcracking, debonding around inserts

The leadpipe/valve block interface especially worries me because: player handling loads concentrate there,
vibration and torsion are high, sweat exposure is severe.

Maybe Butler thought this all out... but there is no risk way to repair any of this.. If it breaks it is trash. Metal is great because it dissipates energy through plastic deformation... meaning it dents.. fiberglass has a low students and can flex plus it can be fixed in the field... carbon fiber is extremely stiff and rigid but it very brittle when it does yield as and there is no was to fix it reliabiy other than throwing away and replacing parts. Even Butler wouldn't really be able to do it well.

[bloke]

I could be wrong but I believe I recognize the same valve section which is on the JP brass sousaphone, which I sell for less than that this amount in silver plate with a hard case.

I'm just not used to seeing $10,000 plastic sousaphones, regardless of how high-tech or lightweight.

I hope they sell a ton of them and become stinking rich doing it.

Interesting, I spoke to the John packer reps at namm this year and they said they were unwilling to sell valve sections by themselves. Me and my new repair guy haven't had any luck finding a valve section for a project that's reasonable. He found a factory in China offering the valve section by itself close to the cost of importing the whole tuba straight from jinbao.

John Packer doesn't own the factory that makes their instruments.
Some of their models are not proprietary.
Like I said, it looks like the valve section is the same as one they use.
It's very similar to King except better made, unless you go way back to the H. N. White years, whereby those were equally good compared to the JP valve sections.

[donn]

So thermal cycling creates interfacial stresses.

It's worth asking them about this joint, if anyone's thinking about dropping $10K on one. (I'm not, but I'm not a sousaphone playing pro.) In this image from their facebook page, I can convince myself that they have accounted for it with a sort of joint liner or gasket of a third material. Not the leadpipe - that does seem kind of crazy to me, and likely they'd be willing to supply a standard factory leadpipe as an alternative, or later purchase.

[donn]

(oops)

[Mary Ann]

Looks to me like the metal is going OVER the CF, which as long as it is fitted at the lowest temperature possible so it doesn't squash the CF when it contracts in the cold, and if some kind of flexible "glue stuff" is used, I think the connections could be made to work without the obvious potential disaster. Since this is for the military, it isn't going to be designed for young scholars to abuse.

[bloke]

In my view, an 11 lb sousaphone is really great.
If the carbon fiber is thick enough to not be brittle in outdoor marching collisions, that's also great, but carbon fiber (though known to be strong) is stronger when there's more of it (just as with many other substances used for building things). I recall some super lightweight carbon fiber tuba cases that really took it on the chin when checked as luggage, and the instruments within also didn't fare so well (had to repair a couple of those).

Being that it's only 11 lbs., if it's as sturdy as the old 17 to 18 lbs. VINTAGE King fiberglass of the past (before they started making them super thick and heavy like Jupiter, and decades before they discontinued production), that's great, but I still don't see myself (nor too many others...??) shelling out 10,000 bucks for a non-metal sousaphone... (and yes I'm one who claims that there really isn't much difference at all between the sound of a metal and fiberglass sousaphone of the same model, assuming both are in top condition).

Knowing that King intonation (far from perfect with three valves) is about the best offered by any sousaphones, I'm probably good with a $1,500 to $2,000 excellent used VINTAGE (17 to 18 lbs.) King, and - if gloss black struck my fancy - I have some friends who own a body shop who could put some really durable - and affordable - gloss black and clear coat on one of them.

My impression of this company is that they have mostly been catering to a boutique market - mostly a subset of a subset of the high-end trombone market.

The plastic sousaphone market is quite different.
About the only two which are name brand and currently built are Yamaha and Jupiter. I only see older Yamaha fiberglass sousaphones because those have gotten to be quite expensive. Additionally, Yamaha are large which sort of defines heavy. I the thick Jupiter fiberglass sousaphones are also heavy (as was the final version of King). I'm seeing big box new prices for Jupiter fiberglass in the mid-$4000 range. Based on how many of their instruments there are out there, Jupiter has tremendous production capacity. I don't know how much lower than this price range school bids are on the Jupiter fiberglass sousaphones, but they include hard cases. To me, the school market is where plastic sousaphones are mostly going to be sold - and band directors are going to have to be talked out of their beloved silver-plated brass preference. I could see band directors paying $500 to 1,000 more for an 11 lb. black plastic sousaphone if it plays well and it would have to include a hard case, and that's if they could be talked out of silver plated brass, and if they could be convinced (as am I) it's the air column that defines the overwhelming characteristics of the sound (and not the container of the air column). I just don't believe that many band directors are this open-minded. I also don't know how break or tear resistant the Butler gauge of carbon fiber is. To summarize this paragraph, I could see a limited number of band directors paying up to $6,500) for an 11 lb. carbon fiber sousaphone in a hard case, but (being what I understand to be a boutique company with limited production capacity and catering more to individuals) I just don't see that many tuba players shelling out $10 grand for any sort of sousaphone (as almost all of the brand new $9000 - $13,000 silver plated or lacquered brass sousaphones with hard cases are purchased by schools).

one last thing:
When the carbon fiber bodies and bells are damaged (as young scholars and even individual grown up owners are going to break these things) how are they going to be repaired?