BBb for wind band (Lidl)

[claf]

The miniball on a new one is enough to justify the investment, but I need to sell another trumpet for that.

sell the trumpet and get the new horn

That's the plan, I just need a buyer right now

[claf]

I'm settled on the Josef Lidl 684

[claf]

Still settled on the Lidl 684-4M (medium gold brass leadpipe).
However I'm wondering if the .835 bore is not "too big" for me.
If anyone got any insights/advice to share, I'm all ears.

[bloke]

Based on experience with various large tubas, it seems to me that mouthpiece throats and back bores - along with the diameters of the first several inches of mouth pipe tubes - have more effect on what's too big for most people (or not) than the cylindrical bore of a valve section, and - when a valve section is placed farther down the instrument - it makes even less difference (as long as an extra large bore instrument still manages to somehow feature fast moving valves).

... That's a pretty handsome tuba, just fwiw.
The overall dimensions (as it's sort of difficult to tell how large a tuba is from a picture) hint that it's not that much different from a St Petersburg.

[claf]

I plan to take the gold brass medium leadpipe (the picture shows the the nickel silver large leadpipe).

[Mary Ann]

Still settled on the Lidl 684-4M (medium gold brass leadpipe).
However I'm wondering if the .835 bore is not "too big" for me.
If anyone got any insights/advice to share, I'm all ears.

Hagen 494 bore size is .740. It does not suck the air out of your lungs, and it will hold its own. Also not cheap but it USED to be reasonably priced. I doubt you can find a used one.

[claf]

Hagen 494 bore size is .740. It does not suck the air out of your lungs, and it will hold its own. Also not cheap but it USED to be reasonably priced. I doubt you can find a used one.

Yes, saw it, but I fear the "3/4" to be too light for my need (single tuba in my wind band).
Also, It's 2k more than the Lidl new, and absolutely not seen used in Europe right now.

[bloke]

I try to avoid carnival barking, because it always sounds like a shill when praising makes and models that a person themselves sells.

This model (discussed in this response) has also climbed in price with inflation and tariffs, but I really like the John Packer JP 379B.

It's remarkably compact (just as with a B flat I built for myself on a 32-in tall 4/4 Holton frame) yet absolutely sounds like a full size tuba (not 5/4 by any means, but 4/4). The intonation is really good, the build quality is really good, the wall thickness isn't thin as with some Eastern European tubas (so it's not as lightweight as it could be for its compact size), it comes with a super sturdy case (that can certainly protect the instrument - even if a person mostly chooses to purchase and use a carrying bag). and I probably should have just bought one of these instead of building that (albeit) wonderful little Holton tuba for myself, even though I like it equally well. It would have been a lot less work. LOL, and the sound and size are very similar (small tuba, big sound). This model also has plenty of straight pipe in the mouthpipe tube to add a fifth rotor which would render it fully chromatic.

I'm having to sell them for at least a thousand more than I used to, but my confidential price is still quite competitive on this model. It's actually my favorite tuba of all those that JP offers.

I haven't yet played a Hagen 4/4 BB-flat yet, but I'd certainly welcome a comparison (fully expecting the Hagen to be superb). I love the Miraphone people and I love their products, but I also tend to wonder (??) if this Asian (sturdier than the original Cerveny - more like B&S built) copy of the Cerveny "Arion" model might (??) stand up to the 4/4 Hagen, and (again, this comparison hasn't been made back to back yet) possibly without having to use the prepositional phrase "for the money".

It's sort of odd how (with the 379B) combining a nearly 8/10ths of an inch valve section bore with a scant 4/4 size bell throat and overall bell size, that the resonance ends up being actually somewhat smoothed out (rather than more gruff), compared to the eastern European ",piggy" style BB-flat tubas (as well as the Miraphone 191, which is also a "piggy" B flat) that I've played with larger bells and larger bell throats, and combining this with the really good JP379B intonation characteristics, all these reasons are why I enjoy selling them to people, because I know they're going to like them

Mark bought one and didn't like the fact that the stop arms don't fit tight on the rotors without tightening the center screws, but the first few years (1970s) of the current style of Miraphone stop arms were often just as loose, as were some other European models. JP doesn't yet laser cut the interiors of their stop arms, but everything else (amazing fit regarding rotors to casings - fitting so well that they actually require diligent oiling to avoid getting "spit stuck" (just as with the finest rotors made in Europe), amazing fit of pairs of slide tubes as well as alignment of pairs of slides and everything else) is beyond criticism. (I would use their piston valve sets or their rotor valve sets for personal builds - were I still building instruments for myself, though I don't know how much I would save over purchasing similar assemblies from Europe.). ... links: I've seen some people claim (without proof) that their lightweight aluminum links are counterfeit Minibal. JP tells me that they pay a considerable penalty to the Chinese factory for them to use European Minibal links. I don't know what's true regarding this, but I do know that the links are superb, and - again - I would be perfectly happy with those links on any of my personal rotary instruments.

Here's one little story about the quality and the size of the sound:
I was in the process of restoring a 186 to sell to a private Catholic School (which - over the years - has purchased several used or restored-by-me 186 instruments). A private customer (a very good student tuba player who attended another school) had ordered a JP 379B from me. These are sometimes back ordered. He had a really important audition lined up. I had a 186 completely put back together, but not yet polished and lacquered for that Catholic School. I loaned the student the 186 - just in case the 379B didn't arrive in time. Thankfully, it did arrive a day or two before his audition. When I swapped instruments with him and collected his money, after playing the 379B for a few hours, they called me in told me that they felt like it put out as large and as "wide" a sound as the 186 that I had loaned them, (of course) they liked both of the tubas but were particularly delighted with the nick-of-time-arrived 379B. (Frankly, I was a little bit concerned about this, because the 379B is obviously a physically smaller instrument then the 186 I had emergency loaned them.)



https://jpmusicalinstruments.com/produc ... ng-bb-tuba

[bloke]

How about a Miraphone 91 copy from Thomann, only 4300€.



https://www.thomann.nl/thomann_symfonic ... b_tuba.htm

JP offered that same instrument (likely the same factory, though - decades ago - there was an earlier really crummy version built by Jinbao). I just don't like the tuning characteristics nor the low range response of either the original nor the well-made copy. That's a personal judgment that pertains to me.

I sold probably one of the very few of those that JP offered. I'm thinking that it wouldn't play up to pitch and I had to do some work on the main slide to resolve that before selling it. I'm sure that issue has been resolved, because that was quite a few years ago.

[claf]

I'm not very keen to buy a Thomann-branded instrument, I tried a trumpet-shaped Thomann-branded saucepan that was mechanically bad, horribly sounding and awfully out of tune...
The JP379BB seems impossible to find in EU, I've tried

[bloke]

I'm not very keen to buy a Thomann-branded instrument, I tried a trumpet-shaped Thomann-branded saucepan that was mechanically bad, horribly sounding and awfully out of tune...
The JP379BB seems impossible to find in EU, I've tried

I believe (??) that JP instruments are retail sold in Europe out of the (same as) international wholesale company in London.

Just like several other purveyors of Asian instruments, Thomann sells instruments made in several different factories the various quality levels. Just as with anything else, some people are attracted to beautiful pictures combined with very low prices whereas other people are looking for a combination of value and savings.

I don't like the fool with people calling me and complaining about quality or related issues, which is why I stick with JP - even though they're not a super bargain priced Asian instrument company, they don't have as many different types of models (particularly not tubas) as some others. I repair instruments I sell instruments, I play music, and I try to keep my house from falling down, so I just don't have time for phone calls involving new instrument complaints and I don't have the hardened conscience to BS people...so I don't sell all that many new Asian instruments, and I make less money doing it than some do.

Something that I chuckle about a little bit is how everyone thinks that all Yamaha instruments are made in Japan. I'm not going to go into which ones are and which ones aren't - and where some of their clarinets are made, but - for those who like Yamaha marching instruments, my opinion (and realize that I sell them so you can take this with a grain of salt, and assume that I'm very biased) is that the JP versions of those designs are much more durable, as are the JP cases that carry them... and for about half the money.

[claf]

specs state it weights 12,1 kg, so quiet heavy.

Yes, too heavy for me...

[iiipopes]

Since the OP is in France, I won't recommend the usual American recommendation of a King BBb. That said, you may be where Jupiter has a regional service center and their 4/4 JTU1110 is a solid instrument, having been tweaked by Pat Sheridan. Of course, a Besson comp will fulfill the role very well indeed. Yes, there are several Amati/Cerveny models, and finally, since there are so many used since they are a workhorse, a Miraphone 186BBb. In concert band, I have played a Cerveny, a Yamaha 321 (modeled after the Besson), a Besson, a Kin, a 186, and my current Jupiter JTU1110. The classic VMI/B&S/Weltklang style of tuba work well. Any of them will support a concert band well.

And of course, if you want to up the price, a Meinl or Rudy are great, but out of my budget. I have gotten to try them, but not in band.

I am not familiar with the JP line or some of the others, including Lidl, so I defer to those who have experience playing those horns.

In the United States, as Rick Denny talked about, tuba parts are written in concert pitch bass clef. So you read the note, push the valves that will make that pitch, and go from there. The traditional brass band has transposed treble clef notation so that what is notated as first ledger line middle C is fingered open. I don't know what French music conventional notation does.

[claf]

In the United States, as Rick Denny talked about, tuba parts are written in concert pitch bass clef. So you read the note, push the valves that will make that pitch, and go from there. The traditional brass band has transposed treble clef notation so that what is notated as first ledger line middle C is fingered open. I don't know what French music conventional notation does.

Transposing Bb, either treble clef or bass clef.

[claf]

I would be ridiculous holding a kaiser

[claf]

The weltklang could be a very good option, but the seller is not shipping and I don't have the luxury of having the time to do such a trip...
A shame...

[bloke]

Those Weltklang (and all sorts of other engraved names) tubas are really good. Open D is pretty flat, but there are a lot of tubas with that characteristic. Otherwise they're pretty amazing.. Even though they are a B-flat contrabass tuba (not today the end of May 2026, but) when I'm practicing a lot, I can get a really clear singing double high B flat out of those - as if they were F tubas, and of course the ranges of pitches that really matter are all very accessible and resonate very nicely.

That's only a picture, but the picture hints at that tuba being in good condition.

As far as traveling to inspect it and possibly buy it, I understand things are different in Europe. Americans are crazy. We just check our oil, check our tire pressure, and will take off across the country - 1500 miles or more - to go look at a tuba to see if we want to buy it. I guess petrol over here being under 1 euro per liter is yet another factor. The cheapest amongst us will just fold our seats back and sleep in the parking lots of these combination gasoline / truck diesel/ convenience store mega stops (or government built rest stops - often based about 90 km apart on the major highways), sleep a few hours, and then drive on some more.

I have one customer who builds beautiful tubas out of usually 90 to over 100 years old vintage tuba bugles with good sonic and intonation characteristics. They drive 1800 km or so each way for me to completely straighten out the bells and bows of those instruments (and I quickly polish them to make sure I didn't miss any very small dents) before they start on their projects. They drive an old (old: including northern US winter road salt rust) full-size American van that I'm sure gets well under 7 kilometers per liter, and they have a cot in the back whereby they'll pull over and sleep overnight on the way at one of these government built rest stops.

(I'm with them, as far as their opinion of sleeping in motels and hotels, where who knows who slept before us, who knows how well the room was cleaned after they slept there, and nor what they did in there. ...not to mention what those rooms cost today vs. only five years ago.)

Again, things are just different over here. No criticism.

It's not too hard to find one of those same model Markneukirken made B-flat tubas over here, but they're usually pretty beat up, because most of them imported to the US (whereby the bottom wholesale cost may have been as low as $200 or $300 USD, and they were retail sold for about $700 USD) were sold to secondary schools back in the 1970s that couldn't afford King or Miraphone.

[claf]

No offense taken
But yes, things are different, plus my wife won't enjoy me leaving her the kids for 2 days, especially in the concert season when I'm out several nights a week

[bloke]

No offense taken
But yes, things are different, plus my wife won't enjoy me leaving her the kids for 2 days, especially in the concert season when I'm out several nights a week

I get it.
The Pittsburgh Symphony works my son-in-law's tail off.
He's either playing, driving there or back, or teaching lessons (as USDs are worth half of what they were when he accepted the job, as well as the musicians having experienced two pay-cuts)...so he doesn't even have time to do his own yard work, repair his own backyard deck, paint interior walls, take care of minor plumbing issues, change his own engine oil, or any of those sorts of things. During the shutdown, he really hustled (clinics/masterclasses/etc. and miraculously managed to keep the bills paid. Both he and my daughter to a lot of work (he: mostly promotional, her: mostly clerical, though she also assists at conferences, etc.) for the family business he established (many know of "Houghton Horns" domestically and internationally). Again, not only can he not get away, but he doesn't even have time to do his own "man stuff" at his own house.

I get it...so that's not a "Europe compared to US" thing. That's an "individual circumstances" thing.

[claf]

That 781 is certainly interesting.
A bit too pricey maybe?