Meinl Weston 2145 Thumb Trigger No-mod Solution?

[tubatodd]

I recently acquired a Meinl Weston 2145. It's in fantastic shape. I brought it to the local repair person to make it 100%. I discussed my displeasure with the thumb trigger. We moved the thumb ring up about 1/2" and that made a considerable difference in overall comfort. But the thumb trigger was still too low. We briefly discussed some "no-mod" solutions to the trigger. The easiest of which would be adding something to the trigger itself so that the top surface of the trigger is closer to where I need it. Possible solutions were a small piece of foam (her idea), Sugru (my idea) or something else...like an alto sax thumb rest pad.

Ideally a 1/2" of added height would be a big improvement. Have y'all got any ideas?

Yeah, the real fix is moving the trigger and extending the linkage, but I wanted to try a "no-mod" solution first, if possible.

[tubatodd]

Some possible ideas from 30 minutes on Amazon. Not sure if any of these would give me all of the height I want. Perhaps I can McGruber a reasonable, not looking compromise that is comfortable.

Alto Sax Thumb Rest. I'd just trim it down to size.


Silicone Thumb Covers. I'd probably layer on a few of these.


The most intriguing. I had no idea these were a thing. It may be too large though. Worth a shot



This appears to be thicker. Who knows?

[bloke]

It's possible to do a hard modification (whereby the silver solder is pulled out) that looks good when it's done, particularly if it's polished up and several coats of lacquer is shot on it, and particularly if the contact point for the thumb is made of nickel brass, whereby when the lacquer wears off the nickel brass doesn't wear down very quickly no turn green due to skin contact.

This doesn't devalue tubas, in my experience (particularly when the styling of the modification matches up with the original. It actually makes them more sellable, because a potential customer won't feel any discomfort when testing out the instrument.

With my 5450 that I played for years, I finally realized that the thumb ring needed to be tilted at a 45° angle, rather than modifying anything else. No one in Europe offered a thumb ring made that way so I un-brazed it and brazed it back on at the logical angle. I never bothered to clean it up and make it pretty until just before I sold it, because I didn't care about that. (A thumb ring really isn't even too visible when there's a thumb running through it.)

I DO like attractive cosmetics, but with my own instruments, no one's paying me to shine them all up nicely UNTIL I sell them.

I've encountered factory designs that are so ridiculously uncomfortable (either for most everyone or for individuals) that the solution involved reversing the orientation of the rotor in order to accomplish something at the articulating end that worked out for the player.

For a trombonist who was in his70s and had formed some kind of nutty habit about holding his trombone and pushing that round bar to activate his rotor, (rather than building and installing some fancy new linkage) I just redirected the action arm part (retaining the string linkage and not cutting nor rebrazing anything on the linkage itself) over to the other side of the rotor (out of the way of their oddly-placed hand), unbiazed the stop arm and reoriented it 90° off of its original position, and moved the cork plate around 180°. After this, his hand didn't drag on the string linkage action rod portion of the lever. When he croaks - and his wife sells that horn (an Elkhart 88H), probably no one will notice what I did to it, because it's all original parts that have simply been reoriented. ... I also very carefully stripped, polished, and re-lacquered the bell (only, and not the entire bell section), with the engraving popping just as much as it did prior to me doing that, and it didn't look re-lacquered. (I'm usually pretty good at these sort of things - but neither are my favorite types of things to do (neither messing around with triggers and linkage nor re-lacquering). My favorite thing is to just listen to the radio and mindlessly remove dents. That way I can think about more interesting things (things a lot more interesting than fixing horns) while I'm making money.

also:
Anything other than a solid, permanent, actual metallic solution to a hand-related ergonomic issue on my tubas...no thanks.

[tubatodd]

It's possible to do a hard modification ...

...and when I finally break down and decide to go with a proper/permanent solution, I will very likely make the pilgrimage to Memphis and have you do it.

[bloke]

Those that tilt are always more difficult to make comfortable for most people's thumbs as opposed to the ones that sort of remain 90° vertically oriented to the instrument.

Said in a different way, if the pivot screw for the thumb paddle (or some round cylinder as with Miraphone) runs the same direction as would the direction of piston valve casings on a front action piston tuba, the likelihood of comfort is going to be higher.

[Sousaswag]

How about a giant piece of cork? It wouldn’t work on mine due to the angle of the lever, but I’ve seen it done on some SLP models with success.

[bloke]

Again, if the saddle for the lever runs up and down the same direction as a piston valve casing on a front action tuba - so that it continues to stay at the same angle - and I personally like the quarter inch nickel-brass cylinder idea that Miraphone came up with, so that there's minimal contact with the thumb - that's probably going to be the most comfortable.

If there's no other place to solder the saddle, it can be soldered to a valve casing with a flange brazed under it.

... It's just that - if it's being redone from pivoting the other way - the rotor orientation is going to need to be changed via one strategy or another.

[bloke]

Just one last thing...

To change the orientation of a rotor thumb trigger from a horizontal saddle to a vertical saddle, it's a whole lot easier to order a reversible stop arm for the rotor ahead of such a project, and have that part in hand.

I'm thinking a lot of those instruments were made in West Germany, so I don't know if the stop arm fit is compatible with Markneukirchen/Meinlschmidt rotors.

[UncleBeer]

My suggestion would be to first remove the thumb ring entirely. They serve no real purpose, and force your hand into a shape which might not fit you. If that doesn't make the horn much more comfortable, any tech worth their salt should be able to silver solder together a new lever which actually does meet your thumb more comfortably. No need to solder onto the instrument, just screw it onto the pivot where the old lever was. Fixed!

[bloke]

I believe Carl and I agree in one way but - when the lever is hinged 90° from where some of those old school thumb triggers were mounted on some of these models - the thumb ring can actually become useful, because lower part of the thumb can then rest inside the ring (if positioned well for a particular player), the range of motion becomes less with the hinge being changed 90° from the original orientation, and some players can then manage to only move the outer joint of their thumb to operate the reoriented trigger (with the lower part of their thumb resting inside the ring in an opportune position).

It's still relates to moving the direction of the hinge 90°
(which also is going to involve changing the rotor stop on orientation, but whatever on that).

- When these are hinged left to right on some of the older models, the range of motion is more, and the thumb ring becomes a nuisance (as the entire thumb probably needs to move from where the thumb hinges from the hand).

- When these are hinged vertically, the range of motion tends to be less (often, only about the same actual distance as from one cork plate bumper to the other) and a thumb ring can actually supply somewhat of a fulcrum for the lower part of the thumb (with this setup), as the upper joint of the thumb (rather than the entire thumb in the previous example) is often all that's required to move the lever.

There are exceptions, and rotary instruments are often some of them because the extension on the thumb side of the fulcrum is often so long that the range of motion for the thumb still ends up being quite far (whereby a thumb ring - once again - begins to become a nuisance). The long lever to reach the thumb - in many of these cases - often could have been avoided, but it's usually designed that way (rotary instruments) for ease of manufacturing.

[arpthark]

Here’s a pic from @bloke’s old Thor when I was borrowing it a few years ago, to illustrate his point. It was quite comfortable.

[bloke]

Yeah.
The other way to fix it would have been to completely change the entire assembly - hinging it 90° off of the way that it is (as I've already explained too many times), but changing that thumb ring like that solved the problem without having to go through all that rigmarole.

My upper thumb joint is just long enough whereby doing that to the ring allowed me to (again) rest my lower thumb joint against the ring and only move my upper thumb joint (in spite of the way that the lever is hinged).

That's a pretty good tuba, btw.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

I went to school with a guy who played a PT6-P that stacked some glued silicone/rubber disks onto his trigger to get it to the right height. I wish I could tell you exactly what they were, but I don’t know. I imagine it was softer/more comfortable than cork, but cork could more easily be shaped to fit your thumb.

[tubatodd]

@bloke soooooooooo suppose I want to make this a proper fix. It seems like the trigger mechanism can just unsolder from the tube, be moved up an inch or so and resoldered. Of course this means the linkage would need to be augmented/lengthened. I would think I could find some "all-thread" that could be cut and bent properly. Do you (or anyone else) know what the thread size is that would fit the 2 ends of the linkage?

[bloke]

If it's set up just like my 5450, that thumb ring tilt was enough of an alteration to make mine feel okay to me.
The upper joint of my thumb is a little bit longer than an inch, so that worked out.
If somebody has a shorter thumb, they might need a a saddle that is mounted to a valve casing and a complete reconfig (which would also dictate a rotor orientation reversal).

The thing is that this sort of thing (especially if it's made to look nice) eats up hours and money.
With our luxurious lifestyle, Mrs bloke likes having gasoline in her 2002 Prizm, as well as tires that aren't showing wear bars - and not even the steel belts showing.

[Sousaswag]

The 3450, 5450, and 6450 all use an updated, extended thumb lever compared to the 21xx series of tubas.

Not only that, but the rotor has been rotated to where the cap faces the front of the horn, rather than the side. On the 3450 and 6450, the rotor is moved to the other side of the main slide, but the lever remains the same.

Let me take a picture of both assemblies on my 21xx tubas, as well as the updated 6450 linkage when I get a chance later today.

I would have your tech fabricate a new one that is longer and a better shape. I’d also probably do what Joe did with the thumb ring as well.

That’s a long winded way of saying: The 6450 style lever is way more comfortable.

[tubatodd]

If it's set up just like my 5450, that thumb ring tilt was enough of an alteration to make mine feel okay to me.
The upper joint of my thumb is a little bit longer than an inch, so that worked out.
If somebody has a shorter thumb, they might need a a saddle that is mounted to a valve casing and a complete reconfig (which would also dictate a rotor orientation reversal).

The thing is that this sort of thing (especially if it's made to look nice) eats up hours and money.
With our luxurious lifestyle, Mrs bloke likes having gasoline in her 2002 Prizm, as well as tires that aren't showing wear bars - and not even the steel belts showing.

The thumb ring on the 2145 has a built-in tilt. (See picture in first post) That isn't the issue with the comfort. It's actually the physical placement of the trigger. Looking at the picture @arpthark posted of your 5450, the trigger on the 5450 is mounted closer to the first valve than on the 2145.

trigger.jpg (72.17 KiB) Viewed 2415 times

Yellow is where the trigger mechanism is soldered on the 5450
Blue is where the trigger is soldered to the 2145.

Looks like the same general trigger type, but the vertical placement is about an inch different.

[bloke]

Yeah I was noticing that as well. It looks like they learned something, but they didn't learn enough to totally redesign it to shorten the stroke.

If there's room on that '45 model to move the saddle, it's not difficult to lengthen the action rod.

[tubatodd]

Yeah I was noticing that as well. It looks like they learned something, but they didn't learn enough to totally redesign it to shorten the stroke.

If there's room on that '45 model to move the saddle, it's not difficult to lengthen the action rod.

Right, which is why I was asking if you happen to know what the threads were on that rod.

[bloke]

Yeah I was noticing that as well. It looks like they learned something, but they didn't learn enough to totally redesign it to shorten the stroke.

If there's room on that '45 model to move the saddle, it's not difficult to lengthen the action rod.

Right, which is why I was asking if you happen to know what the threads were on that rod.

sorry...didn't see that question.
With near certainty, the threads are M3x.5
Your local hobby shop should have this in stainless steel all-thread, whereby you can cut it to the needed length and (if you manage to move all that stuff yourself) use the all-thread temporarily.