Whiteman Grand Canyon Suite Cloudburst

[edfirth]

Good morning all, I just came across a 1932 recording of Paul Whiteman conducting Grand Canyon Suite and was pleasently suprised by the tuba playing. The Cloudburst movement, as I'm sure most of you know, has a loud, low, busy part that I've never heard really come out before but this player knocks it out of the park. It sounds suspiciously like Fred Pfaff who was one of the heavies of that period. Bell front B flat Conn(don't know the model number). It'll make your day. Best to all, Ed Oh yeah, it's on You Tube

[prairieboy1]

I just listened to this moments ago and agree with the OP. The tuba playing was very good indeed. I know that Fred Pfaff played with Sousa.

[hrender]

[bloke]

I listened to this a year or two ago.
Find the On the Trail movement of the same recording, and notice that - instead of unison trombones - it's a single trombonist with a Solotone mute and slide vibrato.

[hrender]

More with Fred Pfaff here:

[bloke]

I've always wondered if Mr. Pfaff was related to the Germans who manufacture sewing needles and other machinery.

I'm not going to stop and research that with my phone, but I sort of suspect that - to this very day - they make the steel needles that are required to play records with Victrola phonographs.

[hrender]

I listened to this a year or two ago.
Find the On the Trail movement of the same recording, and notice that - instead of unison trombones - it's a single trombonist with a Solotone mute and slide vibrato.

Solo at 2:20, but I hear unison trombones at the 3:48 mark, fwiw.

[hrender]

I don't know if this is Fred Pfaff also (he played for the Victor Orchestra), but good playing!

[bloke]

I listened to this a year or two ago.
Find the On the Trail movement of the same recording, and notice that - instead of unison trombones - it's a single trombonist with a Solotone mute and slide vibrato.

Solo at 2:20, but I hear unison trombones at the 3:48 mark, fwiw.

you're correct, of course...still sounds muted (cup?) and vibrato.
trombone vibrato: so easily done, formerly ok (not just Whiteman, but other orchestral trombone solo passages), seemingly - today/orchestrally - verboten.

[catgrowlB]

More with Fred Pfaff here:

I enjoy these old clips. The recording technology was much more low-fi back then, but you get the idea and at least it was captured.
I don't think I've heard any euph player play that blazing fast before. The stone-face he has after playing those passages is hilarious

Seems to me Fred Pfaff was one of the first professional commercial/studio tuba players around. I wonder if Arnold Jacobs knew of him. At the time, Jacobs was playing in Indianapolis and Pittsburgh Symponies; before Chicago. And he also doubled on string bass at times in those orchestras.

It's fascinating to learn more of some of these commercial/studio players, some of them now forgotten or more obscure. Rich Maloof played with the Lawrence Welk Orchestra from the 1960s thru the 1980s. He doubled on tuba & bass guitar/string bass. Apparently he passed away a couple years ago (RIP).

The Grand Canyon Suite is a great piece with some juicy parts for brass. I'm also remembering a cool little bass clarinet solo in it. Wish more pieces like that were programmed

[Ace]

William Bill Bell did the recording, according to an AI search.

Ace

[arpthark]

William Bill Bell did the recording, according to an AI search.

Ace

Bell was playing in Cincinnati during that time so I don't really think that's accurate. (Per usual when asking AI anything tuba-related.) I don't think Bill Bell had any connection to Paul Whiteman's groups.

[edfirth]

Fred was living in Central Florida when I got here in 1983.He had retired from the New York scene and come here to relax and fish but was soon enticed to join the (then) Orlando Symphony. When he retired from that Lee Richardson came in and became good friends with Fred. I have a recording of Fred doing a "recital" with the Orlando Symphony brass quintet with Lee playing an Eb 3+1 Martin and Fred playing one of those smaller Olds horns. He was in his eighties at the time and still sounded suprisingly good. Lee and I became good friends and he told me alot about Fred. He kept saying "I need to take you to meet Fred but Fred passed before it had a chance to happen.Lee wrote an article about Fred in the old Tuba Journal summer 1983 that fills in alot about him. Lee also told me that Fred turned Toscanini down twice in one day for the NBC Symphony. I read on here that some one says he offered it to Bill Bell first and there's really no way to find out but Fred was tasked by Sousa to 'keep an eye" on the younger Mr. Bell as he already had a bit of a reputation as a free spirit. Fred had horns stashed all over NYC in his heyday...like a locker at Grand Central Station,and lockers at the venues he regularly played.Arnold Jacobs definitely knew him. When we were at lunch I brought Fred up and Arnold had nothing but nice stuff to say about him.Anyway, that's some of the Fred stuff I got exposed to. Hope it's of some interest. Best to all. Ed

[arpthark]

@edfirth Here is the T.U.B.A. Journal featurette on Fred Pfaff:


ITEA JOURNAL VOLUME 11:1 (Summer 1983)

At the age of 95, Fred Pfaff is one of America’s oldest living tubists. The following interview was conducted by Lee Richardson in 1981.

The musical career of Fred Pfaff started at the upper end of the tonal spectrum. His first instrument was the piccolo. However, it did not take him long to fall in love with the sound of the tuba. While sitting out on the porch one evening, he heard the Finland, Pennsylvania Band playing Under the Double Eagle March. In Fred’s words,

“From there on I wanted a tuba. I soon got a J.W. Pepper Eb and joined the Finland Band.”

The Finland Band was a family affair for the Pfaffs. Fred’s sister was the leader, while his brothers played cornet and baritone in the band. His brother, Calvin, who played the baritone, was also an accomplished violinist and wanted Fred to play the viola. Fred relates the story of the end of his viola playing:

“One day I was to work in the fields, but Cal worked for me so I could practice the viola. When he came home, he found me asleep. That ended my viola career.”

Fred played tuba with a number of bands in Pennsylvania before World War I. From the Finland Band he went to the Quakertown Band and the Allentown Pioneer Band. The Allentown Band had a big helicon which he enjoyed playing. During this time, Fred played a few dates with the Martin Klingler Band which was regarded as the best amateur band. The Pioneer Band did not want him to play for two bands at once, and the manager gave Fred a choice. So Fred sent him back to the Pioneer Band with the helicon, sans Fred. From there, Fred started doing concerts with the Ringgold Band in Reading, Pennsylvania.

At the outbreak of World War I, Fred was one of the first to be drafted. He joined the Army, but, because he had a son, was sent to do war work for Bethlehem Steel.

“I almost got killed at the steel foundry when a big machine caught me by my pants and nearly pulled me in.”

During these years, Fred continued to enjoy more success as a tubist. He played four summer seasons with the Silas Hummel Philadelphia Plaza Band, and, in 1915, went with Arthur Pryor’s band to Miami. He performed for two seasons with the Pryor Band before joining the Conway Band and the Sousa Band for one season each. From 1919 to 1929, Fred was with the Victor Talking Machine Company in Camden, New Jersey. In 1929, he went to New York.

“In New York the parade really started for me. I could not believe how things fell into place. One day I saw Arthur Pryor on 57th Street. He was surprised to see me. I said I was living in New York and he asked if I could do a broadcast for a radio show called the Shrader Town Band. He then hired me for a show 12 times a week, the Cremo Cigar Show.”

Fred played under a variety of conductors in New York. One of the most famous of these was Fritz Reiner. Reiner was guest conducting on the Atwater Kent Hour, Josef Pasternack being the regular conductor. At the time, Reiner was looking for a tubist for the Pittsburgh Symphony.

“I believe it was the Othello Overture we were playing. It had a bass solo and Reiner said to Pasternack, ‘I never heard it played so well. Do you think I can get the guy to go to Pittsburgh?’ Joe said, ‘No, he’s got all the business in New York.’ That’s when Reiner hired Arnold Jacobs.”

The Atwater Kent Hour was known for its fine guest conductors, and the next guest to follow Fritz Reiner was none other than Richard Strauss. Strauss must have been rather impressed with the musicians in the Atwater Kent Orchestra.

“He started to rehearse but soon stopped and said, ‘This orchestra doesn’t need to rehearse.’ But he finally ran through the program anyway.”

When Fred first came to New York, he quickly became familiar with the other tubists in the area. One of these was Fritz (Fred) Geib. The conductor at the Roxy Theatre wanted Fred Pfaff to play there. Pfaff couldn’t do it at the time, so he sent his friend Fred Geib who had just left the New York Philharmonic. In return for helping him play the Roxy Theatre, Geib helped Pfaff get a job later with the Music Appreciation Hour Show.

One of the younger players with whom Pfaff became friends was William Bell.

“I’d first met Bill Bell in Sousa’s band. They’d just hired him but were afraid of him because he was so young. They hired me just in case, but Bell played everything. Sousa asked me where I was from and said I played a fine tuba. Those were the only words I ever had with Sousa. Bell went on to the Cincinnati Symphony. Later, I got him work in New York. He’d come to New York in the summers. One year, I got him on the Kostelanetz Program, other times recordings – always something. Bell got Abe Torchinsky some work in the city, and when Abe couldn’t make some of the engagements, he’d give them to me.”

Fred enjoyed playing radio jobs in spite of repeated offers for orchestral positions. One of these was for the New York Philharmonic.

“The contractor for the New York Philharmonic was in the recording room while I was doing a date with Gene Ormandy. We were playing something with a bass solo in it. String basses didn’t record well so I got to play the bass parts on tuba. After the solo was over the contractor shook a bunch of money at me and said I should go with the Philharmonic. I told him I had plenty of radio work and wasn’t interested in the orchestra job.”

Playing radio shows put Fred under some of the finest conductors of the day. Like most musicians, Fred had his favorites.

“There were so many good conductors on the radio shows. Roger and Arthur Pryor were two great boys. Gene Ormandy was nice. He said I sounded like five string basses. He was a good guy. I liked him. I’ve never played for a real nasty guy. I only had to talk back to a conductor once. He told me a passage should be slurred. I said that’s the way I played it. Sometimes conductors want to get somebody to pick at, and if you take it for no reason, you’re a goat. But I never took it. I think musicians make up a lot of the stories about the conductors who were tyrants, although a harp player friend once got so mad at a conductor that he chased him around the concert hall, threatening to kill him. I’ve also heard of some famous symphony conductors who were not exactly loved by the players, but I’ve never had that unfortunate experience myself. Everyone I worked for was great.

“In New York I did some radio shows with Harry Salter conducting. Toward the end of the program he’d start looking at me. If we had time to fill, I’d slow down and if we were running out of time, I’d play faster. I always watched the clock and Harry would go with me.

“When Yuba Plays the Rhumba on the Tuba was a popular tune from some Broadway musical. Everybody wanted to hear it, so I probably played it on 10 or 15 different shows in New York.”

In the 20s and 30s the tuba was a very important part of recording and radio. As stated earlier, string basses did not pick up well with the recording techniques available then, making the tuba necessary for a good bass sound. Sometimes Fred would be asked to play along with a string bass to give it strength. Other times he would be the only bass instrument in the band. Fred feels that this trend could have continued.

“If the tuba players back around the 1930s had kept up with the style of the popular music instead of making the switch to the bass, the tuba might have remained in the dance bands longer than it did. I guess the players found it easier to go over to the bass instead of developing the finesse and flexibility on the tuba for swing music, fast dance tunes, and any of the styles where a lighter, more fluid bass sound is desired. We did a lot of dance music on the radio shows, and I never had any problem playing the bass parts on the tuba. A good many players don’t think their tuba is a rhythm instrument, but that’s where the instrument got its popularity in this country at the beginning of the century with the concert bands and dance orchestras playing rhythmic bass parts. With the hundreds of tuba players competing for the occasional solitary symphony position, I’m surprised more of the young players are not treating their tubas as bass instruments and learning a commercial style to put themselves into the rhythm sections of dance and jazz bands. But maybe switching over to the electric bass is more practical since that is the accepted bass today. I still think the BBb tuba sounds better than a string or electric bass.”

Although Fred did not study formally on the tuba, being largely self-taught, he has some definite ideas on how to learn to play it.

“Some of the young players today sound terrific. This may be due to the good training they can get from the ‘old timers’ with the extensive backgrounds of experience. There were no great teachers around that I knew of when I was starting out. We just learned by doing. The tuba was a relatively new instrument then and was just catching on in this country. I didn’t have the time to do much teaching – I was too busy playing. I would spend a few hours with some players just to coach them. A good player will often do well almost in spite of a teacher and doesn’t necessarily need regular lessons, except to learn the orchestra and solo literature. After mastering the basics of brass playing, a good tuba player can learn musicianship from many sources.”

One of Fred Pfaff’s greatest attributes as a tubist was his sound which conductors loved so much. Although he no longer plays at the age of 94, Fred still has some personal opinions on how a tuba should sound.

“The tuba should sound full without being blasty. The brilliant, cutting sound heard from some orchestral players is not the kind of tone that would lay down a rich foundation for a concert band. On the other hand, the velvety, spread sound heard from some of the top military band tuba sections wouldn’t be appropriate in most symphony brass sections. The trend to smaller tubas has left a void in the bottom of a lot of bands that has caused some composers and arrangers to look to other bass instruments to give the band a foundation. I think, for the most part, the bands are giving up the rich, full bass sound for the edgy, brassy tone of the smaller tubas. If bands would go back to using the big BBb tubas, they would surely notice the difference having a full sounding bass at the bottom of the band again. The small tubas have their place, but they sure don’t support a large ensemble.”

Lee Richardson studied with William Bell and Joe Novotny and was a member of the Air Force Band in Washington, DC from 1965-69. He played tuba with the Florida Symphony for three seasons and later became a musician/entertainer for the Walt Disney Company where he is currently the tuba player with the Pearly Kings and Queens in the EPCOT Center’s United Kingdom Pavilion.

[bloke]

I forgotten about that picture of that tuba that was obviously either intended for rotors or originally somehow a rotor instrument.

I believe I have that issue somewhere...

[Ace]

William Bill Bell did the recording, according to an AI search.

Ace

Bell was playing in Cincinnati during that time so I don't really think that's accurate. (Per usual when asking AI anything tuba-related.) I don't think Bill Bell had any connection to Paul Whiteman's groups.
I did another AI search. This time it came up with Pee Wee Hunt. Ha.

To identify the tuba player in Paul Whiteman's April 28, 1932 recording of "Cloudburst," consider the following points:

The tuba player was George "Pee Wee" Hunt.
Hunt was known for his work in jazz and orchestral settings.
He played with Whiteman's orchestra during the early 1930s.
The recording is part of Grofé's Grand Canyon Suite.
Hunt's contributions helped shape the sound of the ensemble.

[arpthark]

edit, disregard

I didn't realize you were laughing at the AI result and I mentioned that Pee Wee Hunt was a trombonist.

---

Yeah, it's best not to rely on AI for researching things like that. It will make up whatever sounds plausible.

[bloke]

edit, disregard

I didn't realize you were laughing at the AI result and I mentioned that Pee Wee Hunt was a trombonist.

---

Yeah, it's best not to rely on AI for researching things like that. It will make up whatever sounds plausible.

Well,
At least we're dedicating huge power and water resources to the genius which is AI (now that the climate crisis is suddenly over and done with).

[DandyZ629]

It could be Min Leibrook, but I’m not sure when he left the Whiteman Band.

[hrender]

According to Grove, he was in the band until 1931, but I don't know how precise that is. Joe Tarto was also "associated intermittently" with the Whiteman band (again, Groves), but no idea how often or during what period.