Air moving through the horn

[bloke]

Unless I'm imagining things, I believe all those things have been said previously, though perhaps not in quite with same phraseology.
Over fifty years ago - n the basement (where the practice rooms and laundry were located) of one of the dorms at Interlochen (sort of northward and closer to the concert hall) was a phone booth.
A skinny tuba player managed to wedge themselves in there, shut the door, and play very loud and very low pitches ( with their skinny184 B flat, if you can just imagine).
It was humorous (as long as they didn't do it for more than 15 or 20 seconds, after that whereby it became annoying) but I'm not sure that I could relate any more adjectives to that (scientific experiment?) other than those related to mirth.
We didn't use that phone, but somehow managed to get our girlfriends and families to call us on the desk phone up front at previously agreed to times. The ping pong table down there was a piece of improvised crap, and the dryer burned all of our light blue "uniform" shirts.

I hope I've contributed enough intrigue to this discussion. Not being a scientist, all I really have to rely on is peer review (whereby I probably would need to trade my approval of my peers' conclusions for their approval of my conclusions - even though I really haven't concluded anything).

Something interesting to discover would be any new improvements or repairs you've done on your RV.

bloke "I've never bothered to try before, but - with my smaller and smaller bore contrabass tuba - at the end of my practice session just now (between these two ever-so-valuable contributions I offered forth this morning) I was able to produce (not only an E natural but) just a little bit of an E-flat... I probably should not have admitted this on a public forum, because some academia-funded composer will now proceed write them in a piece."

[Mary Ann]

The Forum Genius hath spoken.

[iiipopes]

If you're going to begin lumping me in with that crowd, I'm probably going to start ignoring you. Me pointing out that I can play a really low note in a tiny room without having to open up doors surely ruffled your feathers, I can see.

I went back and looked at that other thread and saw it was you who was claiming such things. To be clear, you can talk about how it doesn't resonate the same way or sounds the same as a smaller tuba or whatever you want. Go for it. In that other thread it certainly seemed like you were claiming it would be physically impossible to play such a note in a small room, pointing to your own experience of not being able to produce such notes on your own without increasing the size of space. That statement is just not objectively and universally true. I still find it ludicrous that you can believe such a thing, so I'm going to disengage from this conversation. Enjoy your life, friend.

Enjoy reading real scholarly treatises on how sound waves actually work. Better yet, enroll in a physics class that addresses acoustics at your local or regional trade school/college/university.

[iiipopes]

This entire discussion reminds me of how many people really don't know how sound waves work. This particular incident reminds me of a drummer that I played with in a rock-n-roll band for years. He claimed he could never hear his bass drum. He got larger and larger monitors to try to get his bass drum as loud as he wanted it. Meanwhile, when one of us would go to the back of the joint, it was so loud we had to plug our ears, and it was loud enough, as the saying goes, to rattle tooth fillings and crumble the mortar from between the bricks.

By contrast, for the multiple decades I have played electric bass, I learned from experience decades ago that there will always be a resonance (standing wave) in any given room, depending on size. So I bought a graphic EQ, later upgrading to a really good parametric since rarely was it ever more than one or two pitches that needed attention, so when I had to carry the house with my bass amp instead of going through a house system, that I could notch out the rumble or standing wave my bass could cause.

And in the last decade and a half where I have been privileged to be with a band that had a good sound system and good sound man, all I ran was a DI out and on stage was a hot-spot style monitor because all I needed was the articulation to make sure I was locking with the drummer. I left everything else to the sound man.

I implore EVERYONE on this forum to read at least some introductory level college course materials on how sound waves actually work. You well be better educated; you will play better knowing what to really listen for across the ensemble; and all your ensembles will thank you for it as you blend better.

For example, at sea level, at approximately 70* farenheit, sound waves propagate (travel is not a good word, since a sound wave is actually a series of compressions and rarefactions) at about 1,115 feet per second. The pitch of open BBb (not pedal) is @ 29 Hertz. So 1,115/29 is about 38 feet. Therefore to properly propagate the fundamental, a closed room needs to be a little more than half this distance long to avoid a standing wave or a cancellation, or a little more than about 19 feet long. Any shorter than this and all you have are the overtones, and the discussion on the psychoacoustical effect of this has been set forth above. And since an octave down is half the pitch, the room length necessary is double length. So to get any real propagation of the pitch of pedal Bb, about 19 hertz, is then the room must be a little over 38 feet long to get propagation of the true fundamental. Again, the rest is overtones and psychoacoustical perception

This has all been previously discussed: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=7608

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

I think there's a a bit of people talking past each other and not addressing direct points being made. thedancingsousa specifically referred to a related comment you made in a different thread, specifically:

5) wavelength of the note. If you are doing these indoors, if the room is not large enough, it simply won't work, because the fundamental length of the sound wave for the pitch cannot develop. Years ago when I lived in a different house with both the front door and the back door opening to the great room of the house, I quickly discovered I could not go below privileged D with both doors shut; with one door open I could get privileged C; with both doors open I could finally get the true pedal BBb. (We will save the discussion of what was effectively changes in speaker cabinet porting for another day.)

To me, this statement reads as if you are saying a pedal note (including it's resultant overtones) is impossible to play if the room is too small, and I think this is thedancingsousa's understanding also.

Throughout this thread though, you stated a few times that the full fundamental wouldn't be able to fully form, however the overtones would, and we would still perceive a pedal being played due to how wonderfully our brains can fill in the gaps.

If the latter is true (but not the former), then I suppose I would wonder by what you mean by "it simply won't work". From a pure physics standpoint, since no fundamental fully forms, it technically doesn't work. But they would be able to do the correct actions to produce the pedal and perceive the pedal, even if the fundamental is missing, which kind of sounds like it would work to me.

If the former is true, then the correct actions to produce a pedal would result in only wind noise and generic lip-flapping noise, right?

[bloke]

This has all been previously discussed: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?t=7608

yeah... a point I was attempting to make - in a light-hearted way.

There's some science involved in everything,. There are articles about the types of oils and dyes that were used by Rembrandt and all the other masters - as well as how they appear under different types of light and lighting, and here we seem to mostly discuss bore sizes, new models, prices, accessories, and so forth.

For those who seem mostly interested in the numbers and the physics, I'd truly enjoy hearing some of those same people play, so I can better understand how the numbers and the physics relate (via demonstration) to producing the most beautiful music.

Otherwise, how about some of you really accomplished players - who might not know a whole lot about the numbers or the physics - posting some really nice things for us to hear in order to perhaps mimic, in order to improve our own playing?

YouTube is free.

I have some things on there.
Some of them are quite good, some are pretty good, some are okay, but I wouldn't play them the same way today as I did then, some are arguably humorous, and some are private, because the accompanying ensemble may have been below par and I chose to store those but not expose them.

Quite a few of you play a whole lot better than I do, particularly considering my age. Let's hear some good stuff, instead of just talking all around the subject of the music.

I'm not trying to shut down this thread, but - for several decades - I've noticed there's a bunch of talk and not much music on this as well as the legacy site.

I might even risk putting up some "this is what an old deteriorating-abilities working tuba player sounds like" stuff, if someone could tell me whether there's a cheap way to get my Neumann microphones to work with my little "Zoom" portable digital recorder thing that a friend gave me (now remembering that they were expressing gratitude for me gifting them with something else). How many people record etudes and vocalises on B flat tubas these days? Even the Germans on social media pull out their F instruments.

[thedancingsousa]

To me, this statement reads as if you are saying a pedal note (including it's resultant overtones) is impossible to play if the room is too small, and I think this is thedancingsousa's understanding also.

You are correct!

[thedancingsousa]

Even the Germans on social media pull out their F instruments.

I've done video and audio posting on social media before, not here but on other sites. The feedback generally wasn't super helpful, and only once did a conversation start where I enjoyed the back and forth. As to the BBb question, I'd probably record on F too since it's the nicest horn I have access too, and therefore the most fun to play.

[iiipopes]

Galileo and Copernicus were at one point considered heretics and later proven right.

Again, PLEASE go read and study a basic acoustical physics book or course to better understand how sound waves really work, especially with the brain.

[Rick Denney]

...Therefore to properly propagate the fundamental, a closed room needs to be a little more than half this distance long to avoid a standing wave or a cancellation, or a little more than about 19 feet long. Any shorter than this and all you have are the overtones, and the discussion on the psychoacoustical effect of this has been set forth above. And since an octave down is half the pitch, the room length necessary is double length. So to get any real propagation of the pitch of pedal Bb, about 19 hertz, is then the room must be a little over 38 feet long to get propagation of the true fundamental. Again, the rest is overtones and psychoacoustical perception...

This is causing confusion, and it is, as stated, misleading. The impression given is that sound waves cannot be produced or heard in a room with a smaller dimension, which was the subject of the thread, near as I can tell. The word used is "propagation", which is technically confusing. Resonance in the room is not necessary for the sound to reflect all over the place if the surfaces are reflective (and at these frequencies, it would take extraordinary measures to keep them from being reflective). Standing waves (feedback resonance) are not required, or even desirable because they represent ringing that will undermine the sound. (That's why you had to notch out those room modes excited by your bass amp.) In a large room, ringing like that will blend and create reverberation, and that is musically desirable in performance, to be sure. But production of the tone (and hearing it) does not require any reverberation at all.

The tuba itself has all the length necessary to resonate the sound as needed to refine the buzz and then it leaves the bell efficiently because of the impedance matching provided by the bell shape.

Again, the 40Hz sine waves that my headphones can blast into my ears from one inch away does not require any space at all to set my eardrums vibrating at 40 Hz. If it's a sine wave, there are no overtones present to create difference tones unless the headphones distort, and good ones properly used won't. Yet I can still hear the 40Hz sine wave clearly (at least subject to perceptual limitations as measured by Fletcher and Munson.) A tuba vibrating at 29 Hz plus a range of overtones is 1.) heard at 29 Hz by my iphone even in a small room (see evidence above) and 2.) heard by my ears, because the pulses emanating from the tuba 29 times a second vibrate my eardrums 29 times a second. The walls will reflect those pulses every 29th of a second, too, no matter how close. What won't happen in a small room is ringing at that frequency, which would happen if the walls are 19 feet apart.

I would suggest that those invoking science be careful about their terms to avoid confusion.

Rick "didn't just read the beginner books" Denney

[bloke]

Galileo and Copernicus were at one point considered heretics and later proven right.

Again, PLEASE go read and study a basic acoustical physics book or course to better understand how sound waves really work, especially with the brain.

The same thing (modern day Galileos and Copernici being scoffed, gaslighted, censored, penalized, and imprisoned who are skeptical of wild/quasi-religious/top-down-dictated - "consensuses" and "settled" conclusions) is pointed out by those who look askance at our orwellian 2020's "The Science" (yes, capitalized) stuff. (If things are actually so, it's not necessary to coerce people into either believing them nor coercing people into claiming to believe them, as things which are actually so are almost always self-evident.)

also: Galileo was not the first to state the things that he observed in his pursuit of the truth (which is what genuine science does), but was the most outspoken, which is why he was shouted down, coerced to retract, and finally abused by the powers that be (same as these days).

(You presented the topic and the analogy, not I.)

To your broader point, I believe it IS important to understand the physics of sound, but it's equally important to NOT think about them at all - when making music (which is the point that I have been attempting to make - off to the side).

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Galileo and Copernicus were at one point considered heretics and later proven right.

Again, PLEASE go read and study a basic acoustical physics book or course to better understand how sound waves really work, especially with the brain.

It would be easier if you addressed the disparity rather than deflecting. Are you saying:

1) A pedal played in an insufficiently small room will produce no pitch whatsover or
2) A pedal played in an insufficiently small room will produce a pitch devoid of fundamental but sufficient overtones to be perceived as the pedal pitch.

I’m not sure if option 2 even tracks with Rick’s post since the physics is a bit beyond me, but multiple readers have interpreted your posts to mean either option at some point, so a bit of clarification would be appreciated.

[bloke]

I suppose - Scott - as long as enough air can escape (whereby a room is not absolutely airtight) equivalent to the amount which is emitted from the bell end of an instrument (which is not very much air, so the room doesn't need to be very leaky) it's going to be possible to make a sound. Rick pointed out that the column of vibrating air is actually longer than a brass instrument, so I suppose there has to be at least that much space past the bell (or not, since my understanding is pretty nil...??) or maybe a bit more so it doesn't refract or something (speaking from ignorance) but sound also travels through liquid and solid materials (I've read and experienced) though - with a wind instrument, - I suppose the initial vibration needs to be a column of air before sound waves begin to additionally vibrate solids or liquids (again, speaking from ignorance but supposing and trying to understand).

What if the "room" was a form-fitted space that's exactly fitted to the exterior shape of the wind instrument with the only outlet being the mouthpiece of the tuba? LOL... I would predict an issue.

Well below the level of understanding of the specific science and physics involved in the behavior of sound waves, air does two things that most of us totally unschooled laymen can observe:

It causes our lips to vibrate, and
- it reacts to sound waves.

My understanding is that - in a vacuum - there is no sound.
Sound waves have to travel through some sorts of atoms or molecules, correct?
Whereby sound itself is not a "thing", but aurally detected motion of other things.

These are things about which I'm willing to be "called out", corrected, or schooled, because I'm pretty good at knowing what.I don't know.

Hey. I've played in symphony orchestras whereby the back half of the orchestra was covered by the stage, and played tubas underneath such stages whereby there was less than a foot of space above my bell. LOL... It was (comically) loud as hell, but I didn't have any problem producing any pitches.

[anadmai]

OMG!!

This thread is why I need medicated.

I was like "Ooooh, how to have better air production" but got *waves arms* all of this.

Kudos and dork on.

[anadmai]

I expect *waves arms* all of this from @bloke in addition to mentioning how Obama is the Antichrist,

but damn... the rest of you just went Ludacris Speed.

[thedancingsousa]

I expect *waves arms* all of this from @bloke in addition to mentioning how Obama is the Antichrist,

but damn... the rest of you just went Ludacris Speed.

Honestly I thought this Shirt post was going to go literally nowhere with like a reply a day, but then it popped off cause some people started getting really upset and comparing themselves to famous historical figures. Sometimes things happen

[bloke]

antichrist...??

seems to me that most denominations' imaginations and images of Christ are antichristian. Most of them seem to wish for Him to approve of their thoughts and deeds, which is surely much easier than approving of His. I've even heard that at least one or two of them believe that He hates pianos and organs. I've heard that there's yet another one that believes He likes funny underwear and sexual intercourse in the afterlife. (Insert shoulder shrug here)

me...??
I absolutely believe that there is something larger than myself (I certainly hope so!), but - as far as organized religion is concerned - I'm going to interact with it in the same way that the folks with the robes and microphones do: If they're getting paid, I'm getting paid.

[iiipopes]

Galileo and Copernicus were at one point considered heretics and later proven right.

Again, PLEASE go read and study a basic acoustical physics book or course to better understand how sound waves really work, especially with the brain.

It would be easier if you addressed the disparity rather than deflecting. Are you saying:

1) A pedal played in an insufficiently small room will produce no pitch whatsover or
2) A pedal played in an insufficiently small room will produce a pitch devoid of fundamental but sufficient overtones to be perceived as the pedal pitch.

I’m not sure if option 2 even tracks with Rick’s post since the physics is a bit beyond me, but multiple readers have interpreted your posts to mean either option at some point, so a bit of clarification would be appreciated.

I have already explained this. If the room is too small, there is no actual propagation of the true fundamental. There are interactions of the overtones which the ear may perceive as a fundamental, but it is a perception, not an actual propagation of the fundamental.

Pipe organ builders have been doing this for centuries: if the building is too small for a full-length pedal pipe, they use a "quint" pipe to give the illusion of the lower pitch.

[iiipopes]

I suppose - Scott - as long as enough air can escape (whereby a room is not absolutely airtight) equivalent to the amount which is emitted from the bell end of an instrument (which is not very much air, so the room doesn't need to be very leaky) it's going to be possible to make a sound. Rick pointed out that the column of vibrating air is actually longer than a brass instrument, so I suppose there has to be at least that much space past the bell (or not, since my understanding is pretty nil...??) or maybe a bit more so it doesn't refract or something (speaking from ignorance) but sound also travels through liquid and solid materials (I've read and experienced) though - with a wind instrument, - I suppose the initial vibration needs to be a column of air before sound waves begin to additionally vibrate solids or liquids (again, speaking from ignorance but supposing and trying to understand).

What if the "room" was a form-fitted space that's exactly fitted to the exterior shape of the wind instrument with the only outlet being the mouthpiece of the tuba? LOL... I would predict an issue.

Well below the level of understanding of the specific science and physics involved in the behavior of sound waves, air does two things that most of us totally unschooled laymen can observe:

It causes our lips to vibrate, and
- it reacts to sound waves.

My understanding is that - in a vacuum - there is no sound.
Sound waves have to travel through some sorts of atoms or molecules, correct?
Whereby sound itself is not a "thing", but aurally detected motion of other things.

These are things about which I'm willing to be "called out", corrected, or schooled, because I'm pretty good at knowing what.I don't know.

Hey. I've played in symphony orchestras whereby the back half of the orchestra was covered by the stage, and played tubas underneath such stages whereby there was less than a foot of space above my bell. LOL... It was (comically) loud as hell, but I didn't have any problem producing any pitches.

Two examples where I was involved when the fundamental really did propagate:
1) Ely Cathedral, UK: I was singing in a choir for evensong for the bishop. We had three males in the choir: on the last chord of the selection, the bass sang bottom line G, as baritone I sang mid-line D, and the tenor sang top space G. We were in perfect tune and consistent articulation and tone. The soundwaves traveled the length of the nave, bounced off the west wall, and came back as the lower pitch louder than when we sang it. I will let you look up how long the nave of Ely Cathedral is. We looked at each other with that "Wow!" expression, and even the elderly bishop noticed.
2) Concert band in the regional university concert hall. Huge. A choral section in the middle of a piece was in D major and ended on the D. One of the very few times, since I could see how large the hall was, I dropped to near-pedal D on a BBb tuba, fingered 2-3-4. It caught the resonance and everything including the rest of the band, all the overtones lined up, the chord was huge, the director even held it a little longer. You can look up how large the concert hall is that it did resonate the fundamental.
Everything else is simply as I have described earlier. I am not going to give a primer on acoustic physics on this forum. I am sure any person can go search and find good resources. If over the decades, starting before there was an internet and researching hard copy in my undergrad library I can find them, learn from them, and apply them, then another person can as well.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

I have already explained this. If the room is too small, there is no actual propagation of the true fundamental. There are interactions of the overtones which the ear may perceive as a fundamental, but it is a perception, not an actual propagation of the fundamental.

Pipe organ builders have been doing this for centuries: if the building is too small for a full-length pedal pipe, they use a "quint" pipe to give the illusion of the lower pitch.

Thanks for clarifying. I hope you understand that no one here is disputing this statement. Any disagreement has been under the assumption that you were suggesting the first option, which is implied in the comment of yours I quoted previously. If that’s not what you meant and people have misinterpreted you, then it seems like an honest mistake to me and not worthy of the mud-slinging that came from it.