English Besson euphoniums towards the end

[bloke]

I just worked on one today.

I'm not judging the fact that the whole instrument was clogged with lime and I couldn't get the valves out of their casings without Herculean efforts. (That's not the fault of the factory at all.)

I'm not judging some of the damage I had to repair.
(Again, the factory didn't damage it, they built it.)

I'm judging the piston to casing fit.

Contact vertical wear lines between the pistons and casings are few and far between.

I didn't buff any of these pistons, I just cleaned them.

There are vertical contact marks only in a few places on each one of the pistons, and not very many around the ports.

[anadmai]

Towards the end?

[bloke]

Towards the end?

shortly before the Edgware plant was shuttered, and the brand names were sold to Buffet.

I hate to say this, but all of the current Chinese compensating euphoniums are probably built better than this English made Besson.

[LeMark]

When did the plant close?

I remember seeing some real dogs around 1990, not sure when they started going downhill

[bloke]

I'm thinking the Edgware plant closed around the turn of the 21st century, and production was moved to another English town for a very short time until Buffet bought the name and production was shifted to B&S (with B&S tooling). (They had been making the really large Meinl-Weston euphoniums - which were sort of limited production... I have one which is a Texas Music store stencil - prior to tooling up to make a Besson product.)

As big as Buffet is today, I remember when it was said to be just about going down the tubes - a long time ago - and someone bought it for very low price.
I'm remembering correctly, aren't I?

[arpthark]

I'm thinking the Edgware plant closed around the turn of the 21st century, and production was moved to another English town for a very short time until Buffet bought the name and production was shifted to B&S (with B&S tooling). (They had been making the really large Meinl-Weston euphoniums - which were sort of limited production... I have one which is a Texas Music store stencil - prior to tooling up to make a Besson product.)

As big as Buffet is today, I remember when it was said to be just about going down the tubes - a long time ago - and someone bought it for very low price.
I'm remembering correctly, aren't I?

In 2001, Boosey & Hawkes Musical Instruments Ltd. moved from Edgware to Watford with the component parts manufacture moving to Markneukirchen, Germany. In February 2003 Besson became part of The Music Group, a company formed to acquire the instrument manufacturing companies that were formerly part of the Boosey & Hawkes Group. [/quote

[bloke]

I remember when those various aligned companies were trying to get me to buy Buffet clarinets to sell in my store along with Besson brass products, and their max discount - third column - prices were higher than Dennis Bamber's advertised prices at Woodwind/Brasswind.

[Schlitzz]

I miss my Besson New Standard euphonium. 1975 vintage, it was found on the wall of a shed, hanging like a lawnmower. Had a tech replace the valve guides with Delvin ones, Yamaha valve springs, dent work, chem clean. Sure wish I could find a good Chinese clone of that one. My duty horn had the 2nd valve slide constantly falling out in ‘99. It was brand new. That’s a steep fall.

[bloke]

I miss my Besson New Standard euphonium. 1975 vintage, it was found on the wall of a shed, hanging like a lawnmower. Had a tech replace the valve guides with Delvin ones, Yamaha valve springs, dent work, chem clean. Sure wish I could find a good Chinese clone of that one. My duty horn had the 2nd valve slide constantly falling out in ‘99. It was brand new. That’s a steep fall.

Yeah thanks. You're sort of helping me make my point.
Turn of the century was loosey-goosey everything.

If you come across a JP 274 (John Packer) that's not all full of lime and filth, you play test it...and - if you like it - give me a shout for a quote. I'm pretty impressed with them.
Don't expect the intonation to be much different from Besson (IE no better, all the same strong points and same quirks). They really strive to make these be a Besson copy. They have a pricier one called 374 that's more like a prestige (large bore, etc.) those can be bought in either finish with or without a main slide trigger.
Even the pricier one is only "a few thousand bucks" (not even a handful.

[Schlitzz]

What I really want is a good 966 copy. But I really liked that New Standard. Getting a viola with a tuning trigger…….TECHNOLOGY!!!!!!

[bloke]

Google tells me that the bore of the 966 was large.
(.590") but it's this AI stuff that's often wrong about many things.

If you want something with a large bore and an 11 inch bell, you could find a used JP 374 either (with a trigger or not), and if you didn't like the sound of its 12-in bell, you could look around on the internet for a real cheap Yamaha 201 euphonium, and have someone remove it from that instrument, smooth it out very nicely, buff it up real pretty, and swap out bells.

You would likely end up with pretty close to what you're looking for except with really remarkably good fit and finish on the machine part of the instrument.

Otherwise, of course, these come up for sale:

In my experience, 1980s were noticeably better than 15 to 20 years later.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/377173729096

[LeMark]

I miss my Besson New Standard euphonium. 1975 vintage, it was found on the wall of a shed, hanging like a lawnmower. Had a tech replace the valve guides with Delvin ones, Yamaha valve springs, dent work, chem clean. Sure wish I could find a good Chinese clone of that one. My duty horn had the 2nd valve slide constantly falling out in ‘99. It was brand new. That’s a steep fall.

Yeah thanks. You're sort of helping me make my point.
Turn of the century was loosey-goosey everything.

If you come across a JP 274 (John Packer) that's not all full of lime and filth, you play test it...and - if you like it - give me a shout for a quote. I'm pretty impressed with them.
Don't expect the intonation to be much different from Besson (IE no better, all the same strong points and same quirks). They really strive to make these be a Besson copy. They have a pricier one called 374 that's more like a prestige (large bore, etc.) those can be bought in either finish with or without a main slide trigger.
Even the pricier one is only "a few thousand bucks" (not even a handful.

The main thing that impressed me about the process 274 is the fact that I never had to play high F using the 4th valve. I think that must have tweaked the besson design to iml9that part of it

[bloke]

I'm thinking the really early 274 models had 11 inch bells, but they gave up on that before I ever became a dealer.

A whole bunch of people prefer 274 JP euphoniums to 374 (not just the lower price but also) because the bore is a fourth of a millimeter smaller, whereby the 274 is less work to play and it's easier to lip things in tune with a slightly smaller bore size.

(I'm glad Mark doesn't have trouble with the sixth partial F, but no euphoniums play in tune. They're just like tubas in that regard.)

274 is yellow brass and .580" bore
374 is gold brass and .590" bore
Of course, the fourth valve is larger bore on both, as these are both 3 + 1 compensating models.
The trigger option is only available with the 374.
Both are available in both standard finishes.
Otherwise other than some fancy trim, I suspect they are roughly the same, though the 374 case is pretty snazzy, YET the 274 case is actually tougher (a really tough plastic case whereby someone might mistake it for fiberglass).

[Schlitzz]

Well, let’s get some Intelligent Design and put a water key on the 2nd valve. Ufda….

[prodigal]

What I really want is a good 966 copy. But I really liked that New Standard. Getting a viola with a tuning trigger…….TECHNOLOGY!!!!!!

My best (there are many) violists don't need that, 8 of them had perfect pitch. When I find a kid with good pitch, I draft them into viola either as a primary or as a secondary. It works, really well.

I've had 8 of them get full scholarships, with only one majoring in "music" with double major in audiology. Most are pharmacists or ER nurses, win.

I take care of violists, they take care of me. Yes, they're different, but we're on a Tuba board.....so?

I prefer viola as a solo instrument over violin and even cello. It's the stringed version of a B&S F tuba IMHO.

[bloke]

Well, let’s get some Intelligent Design and put a water key on the 2nd valve. Ufda….

This is the second slide on my compensating E-flat.
The ring can either pull the slide out or it can tilt the water key.
I have no control over what manufacturers offer for sale to consumers, nor what consumers fail to demand of manufacturers.

[arpthark]

Having divested myself from my 15" bell 1968 Besson Eb (that I bought in December 2024 and have played in public... once?), I'm now left with my 1975 (large shank) New Standard euph and '60s 3v comp. baritone. The euph plays great, brighter than modern instruments and with that sharp high Eb, but I only ever use it as a double when I am asked to do so, and to teach lessons. The baritone is an old school one with something like .510" bore and it can cut through an ensemble like nobody's business when I'm cranking it. I use that as a tenor voice in my klezmer band when the great Gary Buttery is covering the tuba part.

The old Bessons are sure built like tanks. I just took a bunch of dents out of my Eb before selling it and it took a lot of muscle.

I had a chance to compare my vintage baritone to one a bit newer, a "round stamp" Sovereign baritone owned by the local Salvation Army group, dating to the '80s. Larger bell and slightly larger bore, slightly worse intonation, not as bright-sounding, but the thinner metal of the bell was a lot easier to un-crinkle.

[MikeS]

My 968 euphonium was made in Edgeware in 1997. It’s actually pretty cleanly put together* although it does have the acid bleeds on the bell rim that prove it’s authentic. That said, if someone offered me an even trade for a cherry JP 274 with an 11” bell (in lacquer, homey don’t polish no silver) I just might take them up on it.

*Yes, I have looked around inside.