Buescher

[Ricardo]

I got the impression Bloke was going to build a front action CC out of a top action Buescher BBb. Lee Stofer seems to have created something similar and listed it for sale. It looks nice. I will never know what it plays like (I’m in a different hemisphere).

But Bloke have you now lost the ‘first to market’ advantage that business managers love espousing?

Anyway hopefully you can build yours soon

[bloke]

There's both a top-action (4-pistons - .725" bore) with a (rare, as most Buescher detachable bells are only 16+" diameter) 19" diameter recording bell,

AND

a front-action (4-pistons - .725" bore) with a (rare, as most are 18") 19" upright bell.

Rough/preliminary tests hint that the top-action instrument's intonation might end up being better.

My front-action (most everything) parts look to be very much the same as the Stofer-associate's collection of parts.

Both valve clusters have been beautifully rebuilt to better-than-new condition.

WERE IT (but alas, it has not been...) THAT one of my per-service orchestras was programming "American In Paris", I would PUSH myself to finish the top-action recording bell Buescher tuba (in C) for FOUR reasons:

> (again) It hints at probably offering easier intonation than the front-action.
> What remains of the job will be easier than what remains of the job on the front-action.
> The solo in "American In Paris" is in C.
> The TOP-action Buescher (19" recording bell) was built THE VERY SAME YEAR that "American In Paris" was composed.

<sidebar>
On the top-action, the mouthpipe is split in half, formerly accommodating the trademark Buescher absurdly-long (now: removed for shortening from B-flat to C) main tuning slide - always with Buescher 4/4 tubas: before the valves.
In that same split is where I will install a 5th (rotary) valve, though I have not thought about how the linkage will be run to operate it.
</sidebar>

In the meantime, I'm more interested in my short/fat Holton B-flat project, and (prior to that) the cimbasso (which has proven to be remarkably useful) project - as well as the kaiser baritone (aka "tenor tuba") project - also trumped the Buescher projects.

>> I have also found that I really do not "need" a really nice 4/4 C tuba, when I have a really nice 5/4 C tuba that absolutely plays like a dream, and which I did not have to build...

As to the 19" Buescher detachable recording bell...Even if it were that I hated it (and - in fact - I LOVE it) I have a buttload of large UPRIGHT Buescher bells, here (nope, not for sale...yet...) and some 6" collars, that - any of which - could become auxiliary upright bells for the recording bell top-action Buescher C.

summary: If/when I get back to the Buescher(s), you'll likely see the top-action/recording-bell one BEFORE you see one that looks anything like the Iowa one.

‘first to market’

...As "market" implies "selling"...How much are you offering? If enough, I'll build either one sooner, regardless of any tuning quirks...
I LIKE your name (P.R.A...or R.C...??) ...so - just on that basis - I'll be delighted to make a deal...

[Ricardo]

My memory of what you were doing was a little vague and not in line with what you have/will do.

I thought you had an upright bell top action that you could convert to front action and CC with the prospect of excellent intonation, let alone two tubas.

I would have to feel very secure in my position to play a top action bell forward CC tuba in an orchestra, merely because it draws more attention to oneself for being different.

By first to market I didn’t really mean sell, just more of a ‘hey this is really cool check it out.’

A few of your tubas for sale have been very tempting but my playing is only with brass bands these days and I’m happy with the tubas I have. Plus shipping or getting a tuba to Down Under is a pain and risky.

[bloke]

Part of my post was tongue-in-cheek, so I hope you appreciate that tone.

The thing about tubas in orchestras is this:

Conductors are so into themselves... how they look, how clever their comments are, and how they make the ladies in the orchestra giggle, that they don’t even notice when a tuba is drastically different… They wouldn’t even notice a sousaphone, I’d wager....and this is NOT tongue-in-cheek.
One time - when I was rehearsing Symphonie Fantastique, the first tuba player wasn’t there, and I was doing a really good job (if I do say so myself) of covering the first part in the March to the Scaffold, the conductor stopped, made a few (boilerplate/rehearsed) comments, and then mentioned that we were missing the octaves in the tuba, because the first player was not there.
What I am saying is that some of them neither look nor listen. Their heads are buried in the score, and they are totally self-involved.

That having been said, there are actually some very good music directors as well, of course.

Most every tuba-like instrument that I own has been used in a symphony orchestra by me at one time or another.

[bloke]

I don’t know if it would be very interesting, but I’d be willing to take some pictures of the taken-apart top-action recording 4/4 Buescher, if there is interest…?

Wasn’t the tuba that was (sort of) seen in the outlines of the symphony orchestra - in the original “Fantasia“ movie - a sousaphone?

[Three Valves]

One time - when I was rehearsing Symphonie Fantastique, the first two player wasn’t there, and I was doing a really good job (if I do say so myself) of covering the first part in the March to the Scaffold, the conductor stopped, made a few (boilerplate/rehearsed) comments, and then mentioned that we were missing the octaves in the tuba, because the first player was not there.

"It wasn't our fault, Herbie wasn't at elf practice!!"

BTW Who here as EVER turned down the opportunity to look at pictures of cool old tubas?? Ever??

[bloke]

random hastily-taken Buescher pictures:

Here's the Buescher 4-valve (cluster partially in view) top-action (cut to C) recording bell body:


19" detachable recording bell on the Buescher 4-piston top-action (in the process of a cut to C)


This is the 4-valve TOP-action RECORDING tuba's o.e.m. two-part mouthpipe repurposed to accommodate a 5th valve.


Possible donor bell (Monster E-flat) to become an alternate detachable upright bell for the recording-bell top-action (C) tuba.


ONE of two possible FRONT-action Buescher bodies (IGNORE the valveset, and the 4-valve front-action Buescher valveset was not photographed) that might be used on a FRONT-action C. This is a 20" bell, which I believe to be somewhat rare.


This is the OTHER possible FRONT-action Buescher (C) body...It's a "monster" E-flat 18" bell - with its bottom bow - fit into a BB-flat bugle.

[Three Valves]

Love the old school engraving....

Did these BAT makers have matching wenger-like tuba tamer things??

[bloke]

"BAT"...

These tubas are about the size of B&S-made Meinl-Weston tubas that have model numbers beginning with "3"...or maybe about the size of the (shelved) Meinl-Weston 2155/2000.

[LargeTuba]

That Buescher front action 3v sure is pretty.

[bloke]

That Buescher front action 3v sure is pretty.

Between the two sets of potential front-action bodies the one (yeah... with the parts-only 3-valve valveset laying on it) in the bag with the 20" bell is probably the more "alluring", but (again) I strongly suspect that the top-action will offer the best intonation (as the bugle is the MOST similar to that of the Buescher C helicon that I built...which offers VERY easy intonation), and something tells me that the E-flat/B-flat combo front-action bugle might offer the second-best intonation.

Testing has been very inconclusive (because I haven't really put parts together well enough to get much of anything better than "grunts" out of these could-be instruments)
I just can't be investing hundreds of hours on something that might possibly offer challenging intonation, yet (ok, but...) be well-built and look cool. After all: We can buy MANUFACTURED instruments (from Germany, Holland, China, Japan, Czechoslovakia, and the USA) which are like that.

BTW...
FORMERLY, the SMALL side of the monster E-flat bottom bow was about 1/8" too small to fit nicely into the B-flat UPPER bow (small side) tenon...so guess what I did?
I pounded a croquet ball (wrapped with two thicknesses of bath towels - to add just a tad more diameter) through the small side of the bottom bow for a perfect fit.

...and the (brown) monster E-flat bell (though not as elaborate) has some pretty engraving on it, as well...It just doesn't show up in my hastily-taken picture.
=================================
The older I become (at least, until senility really grabs hold, and I began to vote for the same candidates as do college students and their professors ), the more I learn. I have realized that I shouldn't be a front-action snob, and that top-action is just fine (as long as I'm not so foolish as to try to hold a top-action tuba as I would hold a front-action), and certainly if no slide-pulling is necessary. Further, I've realized that (though they are more difficult for the operator to hear, and - thus - can tend to be over-played) recording bell tubas sound just as nice (assuming all else is the same) to the patrons, and are often actually a bit easier to deal with - regarding the "immediacy of the sound" issue.

[Doc]

Testing has been very inconclusive (because I haven't really put parts together well enough to get much of anything better than "grunts" out of these could-be instruments)

We'll keep up with your progress. Sounds promising.

I just can't be investing hundreds of hours on something that might possibly offer challenging intonation, yet (ok, but...) be well-built and look cool.

There has to be some sort of payoff in playability. You wouldn't want to play junk, or ruin your reputation by selling junk.

After all: We can buy MANUFACTURED instruments (from Germany, Holland, China, Japan, Czechoslovakia, and the USA) which are like that.

Truth.

BTW...
FORMERLY, the SMALL side of the monster E-flat bottom bow was about 1/8" too small to fit nicely into the B-flat UPPER bow (small side) tenon...so guess what I did?
I pounded a croquet ball (wrapped with two thicknesses of bath towels - to add just a tad more diameter) through the small side of the bottom bow for a perfect fit.

This is called "ingenuity."

...and the (brown) monster E-flat bell (though not as elaborate) has some pretty engraving on it, as well...It just doesn't show up in my hastily-taken picture.

We'll wait for the next round of pics.

The older I become (at least, until senility really grabs hold, and I began to vote for the same candidates as do college students and their professors ), the more I learn. I have realized that I shouldn't be a front-action snob, and that top-action is just fine (as long as I'm not so foolish as to try to hold a top-action tuba as I would hold a front-action), and certainly if no slide-pulling is necessary. Further, I've realized that (though they are more difficult for the operator to hear, and - thus - can tend to be over-played) recording bell tubas sound just as nice (assuming all else is the same) to the patrons, and are often actually a bit easier to deal with - regarding the "immediacy of the sound" issue.

If players everywhere could adopt some of the wisdom espoused herein, they would do themselves tremendous good.

[bloke]

Thanks for all the positive comments.

These projects are still going to sit, for quite a while.

I was only responding to being mentioned/questioned in this thread, as well as to requests for pictures of the "junk piles".

Once the squatty/wide Holton B-flat tuba project is completed, I really MUST put my workroom (and the entire barn) in order !!!

[Kirley]

Cool projects.
Are you thinking of some sort of left thumb operation of the 5th valve on the top-action horn?
Or would you try to keep it right hand for the sake of consistency?
I've often thought a left thumb operated 1st slide kicker would be great for most top-action horns. But a 5th valve should be even better/more reliable.
Keep the blokertainment coming!

[bloke]

Cool projects.
Are you thinking of some sort of left thumb operation of the 5th valve on the top-action horn?
Or would you try to keep it right hand for the sake of consistency?
I've often thought a left thumb operated 1st slide kicker would be great for most top-action horns. But a 5th valve should be even better/more reliable.
Keep the blokertainment coming!

eh...??
Whatever I can manage.
If I can manage a R.H. thumb, I'll do that, if not, your idea seems as though it would work out just as well.

Some people believe that all their mouthpieces should feature the same rim, and all their tubas should feature the same finger patterns...
Why?

Thanks, Kirley, for not necessarily being those.

HEY...
IF SOME OF YOU NEVER VISIT THE REPAIR/FRANKENTUBAS FORUM, YOU'RE MISSING SOME FUN STUFF...IN PARTICULAR, WADE HAS BEEN REALLY BUSY SHORTENING A 186 B-flat to a VERY FAITHFULLY-CUT 186 C...IT'S AMAZING !

[LargeTuba]

Do you specifically buy a lot Buescher tubas or is your tuba stores filled with parts and bugles from differant manufacturers?

[bloke]

Do you specifically buy a lot Buescher tubas or is your tuba stores filled with parts and bugles from differant manufacturers?

I remain interested in a future vintage BB-flat Besson 3+1 compensating restoration (huge sound, very easy intonation, remarkably underrated instruments...particularly the 50 - 60 year-old versions with not-worn valves) - which will end up being a nearly unadulterated instrument, yet with the high-grade nickel slides (found on some of them) and both a detachable 24” recording bell and a detachable upright 17” bell...so there’s some Besson stuff sitting around upstairs.
I also remain interested in these Buescher projects, but even the top-action recording one will require some serious time.
I lost Interest in some other projects, and sold those parts collections off to the others - who have finished them or nearly finished them (as buyers of those parts groupings have proudly emailed me their progress).
A 100-year-old small 14” bell Conn F tuba project is up there in a small Winter molded case…four top action valves, and only a 5/8 inch bore. Since used for that would be limited, there’s less motivaction to finish it, particularly since I have finished my very successful (ie. a remarkably good instrument) cimbasso project...but I am not interested in abandoning the Conn...yet.
Other tubas up there are basically various fine old tubas that – if repaired/restored…and not really altered – should sell quickly...two or three special euphoniums as well, as well as some high-grade vintage small-bore “jazz” American trombones.
There is also a small herd of a popular model of sousaphone, but every single one of those needs a complete restoration.
(Though JP sousaphones are a copy of a different popular American model, it’s just easier to sell those new, as they are built so extraordinarily well.)
In addition, there is a herd of old 4/4 King, a 7/8 Bach (ref: Olds), and a couple of 3/4 (105 knock-off) shiny little Eastman tubas... Pretty much, sales of instruments such as those are targeted towards local schools and local parents of younger band students.
The problem with (as above) listing a bunch of the stuff that I have (that’s not at all ready to sell), is that it generates emails and messages from people who are thinking that it only takes a week or so to put any of those instruments in sellable condition. That may be true - in some instances, but there are also weeks of other work ahead of those weeks...and it also generates emails from people asking how much I want for this or that “as is”, and I’m NOT a “surplus seller“. Surplus sellers are those from whom I purchase things. Finally - when I have something ready to sell, my stuff is “for sale“, and not “on sale“. Were it not that I value things higher than the prices I paid, I would not have bought them in the first place.
Please don’t interpret this long reply as a screed or diatribe. I’m just trying to explain myself.