Are some tubas just better (or just not great) for bands?

[Three Valves]

It’s not worth rescuing bad analogies, no matter how good the intention was. The car analogy is poor, imo.

Tubas are tools. Compare it to brushes for an artist, wrenches for a mechanic, etc.

Good tools usually have some overlapping functionality. Some tools are very specific and limited in use.

WRONG!!

Professionals use tools.

Cars and trucks can be tools as well.

But most players/drivers are not pros.

If you are not a contractor or have a boat/trailer to tow, A king cab dually is as ridiculous as a 20k 6/4 tuba.

[bloke]

Well, it's kind of an easy comparison. It's enormous, price is relatively the same, and it's something that is more interesting to us than anyone else around us. I don't have a pickup truck, but if I did, I'm sure I would be the only one in the family who was excited about it. Much like a tuba.

I suppose…and they both tend to rot out, don’t they?

[Pauvog1]

My biggest pet peeve is not the brass players, it's over-zealous timpani players who nullify the tuba part completely.

Or when the timpani is in unison and not even close to being in tune with the tuba/low ww's.... No I'm not bitter, lol

[KingTuba1241X]

My biggest pet peeve is not the brass players, it's over-zealous timpani players who nullify the tuba part completely.

Or when the timpani is in unison and not even close to being in tune with the tuba/low ww's.... No I'm not bitter, lol

Yeah even worse of course, when they are in Unison I just drop out. The only person I've seen who can push past the sonic space of the Timpani is Perry Hoogendyk with his giant Rotary Orchestral tuba (Mahler 2 on Youtube).

[KingTuba1241X]

A king cab dually is as ridiculous as a 20k 6/4 tuba.

Hey, my King rides in the cab all the time. Oh you mean the style? I believe the word you were looking for is "Super Crew" if you're talking about a Ford perhaps. Wasn't the actual "KingCab" from Datsun/Nissan in the 1980's? Ok I digress, Cars and Trucks are closely behind my enthusiasm for Tubas.

[Three Valves]

That’s probably where I got that expression (King Cab) as I sold Mitsubishi cars and trucks as one of my first jobs back in the 80s!!

[sdloveless]

I don't "get" (ie. am skeptical) when someone claims (after four years of middle school, four years of high school, and four years of kolij sousaphonics, even if someone is ten or twenty years older...and I rarely see people older than that claim this) that they have "forgotten" how to play a BB-flat tuba.

Same. Even after the near 3 decade break I took, sometimes, when I'm playing something that I don't have to really think about, my pinky will go down on a C below the staff or something like that. It's completely subconscious. Please note the horn in my sig.

[donn]

Car analogies are classic, and once in a while, who knows, they may truly serve to illuminate some point. Maybe even with tubas, though I have yet to see it in this thread. The usual point of such similes is to lend some weight to the speaker's opinion, so the first step is to start with an opinion that has some validity.

Are 6/4 tubas expensive and hard to manage? For example, the 20J that for decades was a staple in high school band rooms, or that big top valve Martin the old local band leader/bass player clings too? Are they like race cars for people who want to drive 120MPH? "Give me a break."

As tools go, it might make more sense to compare them to hammers. I have a 4 lb sledge (got it for a gig, incidentally), and it turns out to be a more useful tool once in a while than I'd have thought. Plus a handful of other kinds of hammers. 4 lb-er is like a 6/4 tuba, right? Well, no. It's a useful sub for a framing hammer when you don't have room to put a big swing on it, stuff like that, but ... if you think your 6/4 tuba is unwieldy, it's probably psychological.

[Three Valves]

I get it.

My opinion is right.

You have mental illness.

But I don’t judge and I always keep an open mind!!

[MN_TimTuba]

Well, it's kind of an easy comparison. It's enormous, price is relatively the same, and it's something that is more interesting to us than anyone else around us. I don't have a pickup truck, but if I did, I'm sure I would be the only one in the family who was excited about it. Much like a tuba.

Hey, I enjoy the car/truck analogies, but then - being a preacher's kid - I enjoy analogies (see Matthew 6+, the Sermon on the Mount. "The kingdom of Heaven is like...."). FWIW, I was starting to write a sandwich analysis, but it made me hungry so I had some lunch.
Tim

[MN_TimTuba]

But then, in an ensemble with several tubas... why not be the "big dog."

Brett,
Getting back to your original point, your "Big Dog" statement above fits my line of thinking completely. In the 3 bands I've been playing with here, most my fellow tuba players are excellent (being life-long musicians, band directors, Master's in Tuba Performance, etc.) and they play good horns (new model 2341, Eastman 562 {a wonderful tuba}, and a 186); however, when the conductor calls for more (whether volume, stronger fp, drop an octave, etc.) I enjoy being the one to supply that. I'm not an egotistical guy, but when it comes to tuba, I prefer to be 'the guy'. My horn is the tool (see the abundance of analogies above) that helps me to do that.
And now, my wife wants lessons on how to operate the snowblower (I have a hand surgery in a couple of weeks). One of the advantages of marrying a farm girl.
Tim

[GC]

For high schoolers where a director wants a uniformly instrumented section, I still think the old-style King 2341 is the best horn. With the upright bell, they're excellent in concert, and with the recording bell and proper carrying straps, they provide an excellent sound on the field without being so heavy or awkward that they're damaging to the players. Their sound carries really beautifully outdoors.

Then again, I also have nothing against good sousaphones as field and concert instruments. I just wish current manufacturers would offer raincatcher bells for concert season as an option.

[peterbas]

...

[bort2.0]

I think we are getting a little off track... The smaller rotary tubas work awesome in orchestra. My old 188 was GREAT and everyone loved it. But... in band, it was too much work.

Seems to be a split between using different and more suitable equipment, and saying screw it, I'll play what I want.

My 163 has never seen the light of day in an ensemble... I'm just super curious what it's going to be like, and if I'll feel like I did with the 188. (And again, if SS ever wants to sell the 188 back to me, and I'm counting on a less than 0% chance of that... I'm going to skip straight to the bank and then STFU about tubas for a good long time.)

[Doc]

It's not really a matter of forgetting. It's a matter of unconscious habit. What finger goes down out of unconscious habit when I see a particular note. Back in college, the only time I played BBb tuba was during marching band season. But that was still often enough that I was basically equally as comfortable sight-reading on whichever tuba I had at the time. Now... I get maybe 15 min a day only on CC. I'm not "comfortable" on BBb. Do I know how to play BBb? Sure... but sit a piece in front of me with BBb I'll have to struggle through it; compared to having a much easier time on CC. I think given a week or 2 of consistent 1hr or so per day exclusively on BBb... and I would be oK.

It had been a number of years since I played CC when I got the Kanstul 90 CC. I had a brain fart or two until I got my sea legs back (C legs LOL). I had a few brain farts when I got the blokespecial 186 CC since I hadn’t had a CC in a number of years, but those have gone away. Lately, I’ve made a point to play BBb, CC, F, and *gulp!* Eb on one single etude every day. I want to get away from any kind of automatic finger response, because I do understand how that can work. Plus, if I’m going to play these darned things with any regularity, I better keep up on them. At least I can suck a little less. I like getting called and getting paid.

[KingTuba1241X]

I like getting called and getting paid.

Does the Jefe care what key tuba you bring as long as you sound good?

[Doc]

I like getting called and getting paid.

Does the Jefe care what key tuba you bring as long as you sound good?

Doesn’t mind at all. I haven’t sprung the Hagen on him, but I might in the right setting. Maybe. He also leads an Oktoberfest-style band I play with. He loved the tone of the Symphonie when I brought it, and he is looking forward to the helicon making an appearance. 30 years ago, I played a Rudy 3/4 CC when we worked together in a quintet and some union work until I left town and shifted gears. We reconnected a number a number of years ago through mutual musician friends. We did some German stuff together, and then he asked me to play in the quintet (a few gigs per year). Back in the day, I worked all the time and could hold my own. So when he asked me to play, I was sweating bullets - these are guys from the Houston Grand Opera and the Ballet. I’m the only has-been in the group (I shouldn’t have tried to show off on those darned German gigs.) But it has worked out alright. Mostly because he’s a super fella.

[Furguson11]

5) You and I both know a player in Mounds View who plays a JP 379B in community band, and he says that compactly wrapped horn does the job just fine, and I don't doubt it.
Tim

That must have been where that locally-owned used Cronkite bag for a 379b came from that was floating around on facebook marketplace for awhile. I just picked up a Cerveny Arion (basically the same 7/8 horn as the Packer) that I am planning on using for an all around horn. Most of the community bands around here seem to have plenty of tubas, I couldn't even get back into my old band in Shoreview MN or in the St Paul German Band on tuba, they were full up, so I probably will not have to back a large group by myself any time soon.

The Arion worked kind of sweet in a small brass group at church on Sunday. I'm kind of moving way from bigger is better. I like the smaller one to schlep from rehearsal to rehearsal, I don't see myself going to the cart to roll stuff around.

[MN_TimTuba]

5) You and I both know a player in Mounds View who plays a JP 379B in community band, and he says that compactly wrapped horn does the job just fine, and I don't doubt it.
Tim

That must have been where that locally-owned used Cronkite bag for a 379b came from that was floating around on facebook marketplace for awhile. I just picked up a Cerveny Arion (basically the same 7/8 horn as the Packer) that I am planning on using for an all around horn. Most of the community bands around here seem to have plenty of tubas, I couldn't even get back into my old band in Shoreview MN or in the St Paul German Band on tuba, they were full up, so I probably will not have to back a large group by myself any time soon.

The Arion worked kind of sweet in a small brass group at church on Sunday. I'm kind of moving way from bigger is better. I like the smaller one to schlep from rehearsal to rehearsal, I don't see myself going to the cart to roll stuff around.

Re: Cronkite bag - that could be, though when I stopped at his home and played his 379B I thought he had been using some Miraphone bag. Either way, I agree on the 7/8 rotary compact horns. Very nice sound, and certainly more comfortable to schlepp around. I do see myself headed in that direction before too many years have passed.
For Christmas I played my little YBB-103 in a small group for our good-sized high ceilinged church, and it did the job just fine. It's pretty small to use in a band, though. For now, I'm still enamored with the sound of my BAT, especially in a band with sometimes one, usually two, rarely 3 tubas. I feel fortunate to have 2 tubas of radically different sizes; having a third seems like a (maybe selfish) luxury!
Which suburb do you call home, Furguson? I have a thought running thru my brain re: a small low brass ensemble.
Tim

[bloke]

I realize that I'm a hopeless shill , but here goes (re: John Packer JP379B)

I always thought these were "very good", but the last one that I sold (an "open box" new/demo) featured some upgrades.

Typically, upgrades are just stuff that's ON an instrument, but (I'm really quite confident) the upgrade version also plays even better.

The tariffs necessitated price increases, but (well...) at least - with this particular model - something is gained (to go with the necessitated price increase).

I am building a compact Holton B-flat for myself (documented in the repair/frankentuba forum - a project which is on hold, while several used instruments are being slicked out for customers who are buying them), but - when I played that particular JP379B for just a few minutes (prior to delivering it to it's school destination), it made me wonder whether I might have done just as well (though I'm really enjoying this Holton project) whether just "buying myself a JP379B" would have pleased me (playing/functionality-wise) just as much...Typically, when testing "known" instruments that are being sold, I typically set them down after a minute or so. ...I played on that particular JP379B for a half hour.