Large Eb tubas -- front action, upright bell

[bort2.0]

What are some options for large Eb tubas that are:
Not Chinese
Front action
Upright bell

My recent tuba action has me thinking in this direction... The Besson 983 was good, but not exactly what I wanted. The Martin that I just picked up is a fun little rocket, easy to play all over... But it's too small and not enough valves.

I'm not necessarily a convert here... But the huge Rudy isn't going to work for everything, you know.

I know of these tubas as options ... What others exist, that have good intonation, play well, and won't break the bank? Are any large older American Eb's worth it, or just intonation disasters?

Willson 3400
Kanstul 33
Meinl Weston 2141
Besson 983 (just to out it on the list)
PT-22

What else is worth considering?

[bloke]

Anything E-flat that's 5-valve non-compensating is probably going to define a frantic #4 slide pull every time "low F" (which appears in written tuba music quite often) appears.

Even quite a few of the 4-valve compensating E-flats feature compensating #3 slides which are inadequately short.

Also, polling others - re: "which models are the best" - mostly seems to result in encouraging those - who have instruments for sale - to speak up.

ie: "What is the best ________" is a textbook Freak Jury question.

bloke " 'Low F' - and easily playing it in tune - seems pretty important, to me."

[greenbean]

Front action is pretty limiting. Meinl Weston and Besson. Maybe Sterling has one?... Or go Chinese. The Eastman gets good reviews and is said to be quite different than the Besson. Less staid.

Or the Yamaha 632 3+1 compensator!

Yeah, some folks on the Internet will tell you how awful the 3+1 system is. Usually people who have never played one.

[GC]

Willson has several models other than the 3400. Or used to, at least. I bet they'll build anything you want.

Meinl-Weston isn't showing the 2141 on their site any more, just the 2040 5-valve rotary horn.

[humBell]

There was a post a while back that caught my eye in the for sale:

viewtopic.php?p=30039

I got a chance to play a similar 3+1 Hawkes and Son Eb, and to me it qualified as a large Eb, and was surprisingly fun and satisfying to play.

Don't know if the +1 is a deal breaker though...

(doh, rereading that thread, i guess you were already aware of it... meh. i have put worse things in my mouth than my foot.)

[Sousaswag]

The Willson Compact Eb is just about the best bass tuba that I’ve ever played.

The big 3400 can be a contrabass replacement but the small one is really wonderful.

I owned a 2141 for a while and didn’t love it. Good tuba, but had some things I didn’t like.

The Pt-22 and 2141 are basically the same instrument.

Miraphone makes two as well, both rotary, big ish and small.

I’d probably tell you if you want one tuba to do a lot of stuff, the big Willson 3400 or the MW/B&S would be good choices for you. Since you’ll have a big BBb, maybe check out the Miraphone?

The problem with big front action Eb’s is that they aren’t super popular, and don’t come up for sale often. I haven’t seen a Pt-22 in years. The Miraphone and Willsons aren’t necessarily budget-friendly.

Also, Dillon music has a rotary 3400 for sale that looks very nice. Only 4 valves, but it’s very much peaked my interest.

[bort2.0]

Yeah, I'm curious about the Dillon Willson as well... But having previously owned a rotary Willson, first stop there would be to get Martin Wilk to chop those rotors down and un-Rotax them. That REALLY helped my rotary CC in just about every way.

I haven't tried a piston Willson Eb in many years, but remember liking them. Same with the MW...

With a budget of $5k, not sure any of these are gonna fly. Maybe I'll luck into a large Martin Eb with 4 FA valves and fixed upright bell (yeah, right)

[LeMark]

When I tried one at ITEC 2016, I thought the compact Willson Eb was one of the best tubas I've ever tried, but two things to remember

1. It's heavy as a battleship
2. It's never going to be close to $5000

[donn]

I don't know the Kanstul 33, but the Kanstul 66-S is close - side action. And it's large. I don't have experience with all that many tubas, including anything close like the MW 2141, but I don't have any serious complaints. Lovely sound, nice big bell flare. Mechanically no great testament to American manufacturing and design, but it hangs in there. I've seen criticism that the intonation is too flexible, which I can understand but it doesn't bother me. F in the staff is better 1 & 3. Owners of the top action 66-T say it's easier to play, but yeah, that's hard if you're planning to march with it or something.

It seems to me that tuba players' insistence on the Biggest Eb Tuba is one of the reasons they aren't super popular. I mean, in terms of kind of a long term trend, if we had kept the bass tuba around as a distinct counterpart to the contrabass tuba, there'd be a role for it, but bass tuba players want their tubas to be the equivalent of a contrabass tuba, and in fact insist that they are when they certainly are not. So we have these Big Eb Tubas that butt right up against the limits of what will work. Smaller than the Giant Basses of yore, but still not really at the sweet spot. I'm guilty enough - I've got that big Eb and I've played the contrabass part on it as only tuba in the band, etc. - but if I'd had the nice big BBb I have now, I'd have had less incentive to do that.

[bort2.0]

Thanks Donn... I meant the 66, you're right.

[LargeTuba]

Try the new Wessex 6/4 Eb. I understand the no Chinese rule, but it's worth a try.

[TubātōTubŏtō]

I, for one, am still very interested in the Compact Willson. Those of you who've played it, how would you describe your experience? Does anyone know someone who might let me try theirs?

Also, do look at the Eastman 853. I currently own one, and I'm by and large very pleased with it. It's Chinese, yes, but it's notably different from the Besson, imo.

[Oedipoes]

Miraphone Norwegian Star, 5- valve version!!

[UncleBeer]

I second the suggestion of the Wessex large Eb. This is an excellent instrument, so whatever presuppositions you have re: "Chinese" which would keep you from even trying a really good instrument are worth getting past.

imgonline-com-ua-CompressToSize-SXm3kNnzPgj.jpg (190.95 KiB) Viewed 2540 times

[bloke]

I’ve not made it a secret that I personally believe that the 3+1 compensating system is the best one for E-flat tubas. “Having to anchor my pinky finger simply for the sake of making an instrument front action” (front-action compensating) is awkward to me personally, though others seem to be able to deal with it.
Again, with the compensating system, the third valve compensating loop needs to be long enough. One of the main reasons why I lean towards this system for an E-flat tuba is an on-the-fly (without requiring 5-valve-system sudden slide yanking for such a commonly played pitch) low F.
As so many E-flat tubas are designed as “fake B-flat tubas” (certainly, including the 19 inch bell 3+1 style instruments that I personally favor), The 8th partial pitches (yes?) should be carefully evaluated prior to a purchase, as huge bells can tend to sag these pitches… so I would recommend finding one whereby these pitches are either close to spot-on or easily favored.
I’m not sure just how Bill is going to use the one - that he just bought - away from home, but I must say that I’m quite jealous of his ownership of it.

Front action is pretty limiting. Meinl Weston and Besson. Maybe Sterling has one?... Or go Chinese. The Eastman gets good reviews and is said to be quite different than the Besson. Less staid.

Or the Yamaha 632 3+1 compensator!

Yeah, some folks on the Internet will tell you how awful the 3+1 system is. Usually people who have never played one.

[LeMark]

I've tried for years to make a 3+1 euphonium feel more natural than having all 4 valves in a row, still not there for me

[bloke]

Considering how much money you just put into one of those types of instruments, I’m sure it will become second nature to you quite soon.

I've tried for years to make a 3+1 euphonium feel more natural than having all 4 valves in a row, still not there for me

[LeMark]

I regretted passing up a 4 in a row Willson Euph that came available last year, but you're right, I'm committed now

[bloke]

I owned one for an extremely short period of time, was disappointed in the way it played - compared to my 3+1 same-make, and (I’m thinking…??) I shipped it off to Klaus in Denmark.

I’ve messed with them several times - since that time - at various tuba shindigs including an opportunity to purchase a new one for around $1000 under regular dealer cost - since I was displaying them, and it was a “demo”), and experienced the same disappointment.

… so with the euphonium thing, the issue was more than the ergonomic “pinky anchoring“ issue, for me.

I guess the 983-style E-flat instruments are quite good, but their sonority is really more reminiscent of that of an F instrument, and I already have a fine F instrument (and one that doesn’t try to pretend to be an E-flat instrument) that I would prefer to use for such applications.

I regretted passing up a 4 in a row Willson Euph that came available last year, but you're right, I'm committed now

[LeMark]

I really like the feel of the king euphonium I have. Quick 4 in a row valves, and I even added a 5th valve to it, but... The tone isn't there

Huge fan of the Packer 274 that I have, but as you know I technically bought it for my Daughter, and she's actually playing it now in community band, so I had to.get a replacement.

If the adams hadn't presented itself as a bargain, (5k off the price of buying it new) then honestly I probably would have been calling you to get another 274. They are honestly 95% as good as the adams for 25% of the price.

I'm going to shoot a head to head video of the two of them. I think the results will surprise a lot of people