Gold Brass myths

[donn]

There's a bunch of different ways it can be mixed, when I googled it it said 66% copper 34% zinc.

I want to say most musical instruments you 70% copper for yellow brass and 80% copper for gold brass.

There's also red brass, which you see in trumpet and trombone bells occasionally. I don't know how much copper is in those, but I'm guessing 85% maybe?

I never did see any number for gold brass; the 67/33 yellow brass might be specifically American (vs 70/30 "standard" brass), and red (rose?) brass was 85/15.

Reynolds had a "Bronz-o-Lite" or something like that, which means tin instead of zinc if it's really bronze. Kanstul's "special brass" bell has a kind of interesting brown cast, I've wondered if there could be some tin in it, but probably not.

I concur that artists should probably steer clear of considerations like this, and go with whatever inspires them.

[bloke]

Probably (??), 80:20 “low brass” is what is commonly used today on “gold brass“ instruments.

My personal belief is that those Kanstul instruments - just previously mentioned - are bronze (and - fwiw - I’ve never encountered “York” anything that is bronze).

[Doc]

Probably (??), 80:20 “low brass” is what is commonly used today on “gold brass“ instruments.

My personal belief is that those Kanstul instruments - just previously mentioned - are bronze (and - fwiw - I’ve never encountered “York” anything that is bronze).

I loved the sound of my Kanstul. That was about as "York" as I'll likely ever sound, short of owning an actual York. Is that York sound due to the metallurgy that Rob Carpenter rediscovered? Or is it due to the actual design/copy?

I can't answer that. I'm not a scientist.

Doc (who doesn't know or especially care, but awaiting confirmation anyway)

[bloke]

We have all read others claims/stories/fables about what went on at York in Grand Rapids, with little documentation - if any.

I do like the type of sound that the 18-1/2 to 19 inch bell (all that I’ve encountered: yellow brass) instruments make, particularly when their valvesets are not worn out (or have been rebuilt or replaced), they are not chopped to C, and there’s a good player operating them.

I have always found it curious that what really brought this smaller maker to tuba players’ attention is a single one-off instrument - which was purchased by its longtime player, secondhand.

[bort2.0]

I can't answer that. I'm not a scientist.

Doc (who doesn't know or especially care, but awaiting confirmation anyway)

Good news, you were confirmed anyway and will forever get to decide -- whenever and wherever -- how to define things such as "York sound" and "special alloy." You're just awaiting the rubberstamp from el hefe to receive your lifetime appointment to the TFFJ.

[Doc]

I can't answer that. I'm not a scientist.

Doc (who doesn't know or especially care, but awaiting confirmation anyway)

Good news, you were confirmed anyway and will forever get to decide -- whenever and wherever -- how to define things such as "York sound" and "special alloy." You're just awaiting the rubberstamp from el hefe to receive your lifetime appointment to the TFFJ.

B91A5878-7B93-4B7E-8FCC-16779C6D97E1.jpeg (134.53 KiB) Viewed 491 times

[hup_d_dup]

Once again, I’ve been out-knowledged, out-experienced, and out-sensitived.

“I can out-learn you, I can out-read you, I can out-think you, and I can out-philosiphize you.” - Max Cady

[bloke]

Once again, I’ve been out-knowledged, out-experienced, and out-sensitived.

“I can out-learn you, I can out-read you, I can out-think you, and I can out-philosiphize you.” - Max Cady

noted:
Mr. Cady did not mention any real work…
… and based on what I see around me, the real God (ref: another Cady quote) seems to have done a lot of work.

[donn]

I loved the sound of my Kanstul. That was about as "York" as I'll likely ever sound, short of owning an actual York. Is that York sound due to the metallurgy that Rob Carpenter rediscovered? Or is it due to the actual design/copy?

I'm curious about what we're talking about here. Is "York" shorthand for that certain tuba, does it apply equally to all tubas with "York" engraved on the bell (minus York Master), all except sousaphones, ...? It seems to me that if York metal were any kind of special, the York beaters that show up from time to time would sell faster. And I guess Kanstul might still be in business. For me, if their 66S brings back a golden age of Eb tubas, it's the bore profile, bell flare etc. I like that special alloy bell, but seems unlikely anyone can hear it.

[Doc]

I loved the sound of my Kanstul. That was about as "York" as I'll likely ever sound, short of owning an actual York. Is that York sound due to the metallurgy that Rob Carpenter rediscovered? Or is it due to the actual design/copy?

I'm curious about what we're talking about here. Is "York" shorthand for that certain tuba, does it apply equally to all tubas with "York" engraved on the bell (minus York Master), all except sousaphones, ...? It seems to me that if York metal were any kind of special, the York beaters that show up from time to time would sell faster. And I guess Kanstul might still be in business. For me, if their 66S brings back a golden age of Eb tubas, it's the bore profile, bell flare etc. I like that special alloy bell, but seems unlikely anyone can hear it.

I don’t dismiss any work Rob and those folks did in their research, but I posed the question about it being more about the design itself, just as you did.

And truth of the “York sound” most of us have is really the “Arnold Jacobs playing the CSO York” sound. Not ever having played the CSO Yorks, I don’t know how I would actually sound on them. My guess is that I would like my sound very much, as I like many of the attributes that those tubas seem to impart regardless of the player (Jacobs or Pokorny). I’ve tried a number of York copies, but none had that “AJ on the CSO York” sound.

If that really is the definition of that sound, maybe I should clarify my belief that, unless I get to test a CSO York, the Kanstul I had was as close as I will likely come to the “AJ on the CSO York” sound.

Either way, I loved the sound.

[Casca Grossa]

…Mostly, I was remembering that bowser 188 “anniversary model” that I bought new - a couple of years after the 188 model was introduced, and how every single yellow brass 188 that I played after that one has played twice as good…

… but I tend to believe that something was not right with that particular instrument, and to not blame 10% more copper in its alloy - nor blame its nickel-brass valveset.

Even when I bought it, it never occurred to me that those alloys would make it sound different, and only that they were jazzing up the looks of the thing.

bloke “I strongly believe that my skepticism has helped me out a great deal - over the decades, and the legions of others’ lack of it – certainly on Election Day year-in and year-out - has hurt me - over the decades.”

Back in my 'fessional playing days, the outfit I performed with owned two anniversary model 188's. Both purchased at the same time. One in gold brass and the other in yellow. The horns were purchased shortly before myself and another player were hired. The player who picked the horns, and whom I replaced, is still a very well respected 'fessional player. He did a very good job choosing the horns IMHO.
The other tuba player in the group preferred the yellow brass and I preferred the gold. Not sure why. We had both been hired within a couple of weeks of each other so we spent a good amount of time test playing the horns and trading back and forth before we settled on our respective horns. I still miss that horn.

Casca "who is nowhere close to being a respected amateur player these days" Grossa

[bloke]

I'm pretty sure that thin instruments physically vibrate (against the player's person) more than thicker instruments, and it may (??) be true that 80:20 and nickel-brass instruments physically vibrate less (against the player's person), but I believe that two instruments - with identical interiors, nothing goofed up, the same mouthpieces, and (impossible, in nature) played by the same player at the same time in the same way - will sound the same to most anyone's (including the most discriminating) ears. To say it in a different way, I believe even very sensitive listeners (who are also the players) are very easily distracted by the tactile.

My "dog" (gold-brass and nickel-silver - aka: "Anniversary") 188 was played - years ago - when I was a finalist (one of those go-through-the-motions/perfunctory/required auditions, but but whatever) for a full-time job, back in the 1980's. I was also playing a borrowed B&S Symphonie F.

I've played much better 188's and my own B&S Symphonie F is much better than the one that I borrowed.

Those things having been said, I can't say that I would have played much better on a better 188 and on my better F tuba...and (again: having been a go-through-the-motions/perfunctory/required audition) that's all moot, anyway.

[Mary Ann]

Well, I am convinced for no particular reason that it is the internal dimensions that determine the sound. No two instruments, no matter how they are made, have the exact same internal dimensions. The closest I've come was after buying my Silver-plate NStar after playing my friends yellow brass lacquer one. Neither of us could tell any difference between them, but neither of us is at that supremely high enough level to do so. My friend gets a beautiful rich sound on his, still, at 82 or whatever he is now.