Holst Suite 2 technical work-around suggestion

[bloke]

topic: a short passage played by the "Basses" in the 4th movement:
==========================================

The tempo marking is "Allegro Moderato", yet - being a finale, and with so many band directors eager to impress their audiences with their bands - as well as doing so with flashy finishes - I tend to hear (and personally have experienced - including under Fred Fennell's direction) this movement played more at an "Allegro Molto" type of tempo.

Had Holst conceived of this movement at an "Allegro Molto" tempo, I tend to wonder if he might have possibly (particularly, had he consulted with the "Basses") written in different articulations for this particular passage:

Holst passage.png (14.99 KiB) Viewed 1344 times

Please notice how I re-articulated it (in red). At a high velocity - and particularly with a large instrument (where sudden frequency changes require more physical effort) - to me, it just makes more sense to articulate the C's and "land" on the F's.
- Slurring "into" them, the F's (on the beats) will actually end up being emphasized more (rather than less, as tonguing - in that range - requires a good bit of effort - as well as finesse).
- It's remarkably easier. (I would encourage anyone - currently at any level of playing ability - to try it both ways.)
- The aural perception of the actual articulation difference (for Holst loyalists and longstanding publications loyalists) is nearly nil - particularly with everything that's going on.
- It will possibly (probably?) end up being louder and clearer, as (again: surely, for most...??) it is easier.

As to the very fast tempi which many directors request for this movement, I was involved in this performance (mislabeled as being conducted by Bob Foster, but - again - actually conducted by Fred Fennell), which clocks out at something faster than 132...and creeping up slightly faster (per Fennell's style with "things fast") as it went along.

[DonO.]

One of my pet peeves is inappropriate, too-fast tempi. Conductors and performers both can be guilty. When I was in high school I had several private lessons with Phillip Catelinet, who was teaching at Carnegie-Mellon University
in Pittsburgh at the time. Now, I know he is somewhat controversial, his playing was not universally admired, but all of that aside, he did do the premier performance of the Vaughn Williams Concerto, and worked with Vaughn Williams personally. So if anyone on earth knew how fast it was supposed to go, it would be him. I was trying to play the Concerto, at that age, on a 3 valve BBb. I know, chutzpah, right? But one of the things I clearly remember him saying was that I was trying to take the first and third movements too fast, and he bemoaned the fact that most modern players took those movements too fast also. Including the recordings students were modeling. He would make a face and say “That’s not how V.W. wanted it!”.

I heard a piano player playing “The Maple Leaf Rag” on TV recently and it was performed so fast that the melodic lines blurred and the whole piece no longer made any musical sense. It was just showing off. I thought “This is a perfect example example of ‘just because it can be done doesn’t mean it should be done’”

I appreciate the work-around on the Holst Second Suite, but with all due respect it would not be necessary if the conductor took it at the intended speed. I have played the Second Suite. It was a long time ago but as I recall I played that passage as written.

To all musical performers and conductors, I would say “Lighten up folks, it’s not a race!”. And when preparing a piece, if you are using recordings as your model, listen to as many versions as you are able. Note any tempo differences between the versions. And try to get into the composer’s head. Note how he or she used the same tempo markings in other pieces. Take into account stylistic considerations. What is the composer trying to get across?

I suppose it’s close to being a musical heretic to say a conductor with the status of Frederick Fennell is wrong. But if a piece of music is marked Allegro moderato and he takes it Molto Allegro, then I’m sorry. Wrong is exactly what he was.

[bloke]

When I hear - specifically - youtube recordings of brass quintet music being played "as fast as physically possible" (often: sounding comical) I immediate suspect that it's a quintet consisting of graduate students. ie. "This is absolutely as fast as we can play this, so this must - then - be the appropriate tempo."

The Holst 4th movement doesn't sound "comical" or "bad" when played quite fast, which is probably why (in addition to it being the final movement) so many directors/conductors bump up the tempo on that movement. That having been said, the Dargason (a centuries-old English country tune) does sound better at the appropriate tempo.

' nuff said.

[bort2.0]

Re: Fennel and fast tempos...

I never met the man, but know people who've played under him. My memory from their stories is that you'd better know your stuff, and you would catch a ration and a half of Shirt if you didn't.

Which has always led me to believe, fast tempos require playing fast things cleanly and accurately. If you can play it cleanly fast, you can play the slower stuff cleanly too.

Any band performance worth a damn is "clean" and "tight" more than a thing else.

[bloke]

Re: Fennel and fast tempos...

I never met the man, but know people who've played under him. My memory from their stories is that you'd better know your stuff, and you would catch a ration and a half of Shirt if you didn't.

Which has always led me to believe, fast tempos require playing fast things cleanly and accurately. If you can play it cleanly fast, you can play the slower stuff cleanly too.

Any band performance worth a damn is "clean" and "tight" more than a thing else.

It was a fun two or three days...and I don't recall him giving us any "shirt".
I DO recall him smiling a bunch, and having lots of fun.
I've posted a link (from the same concert) Fillmore's "His Honor" march - from that same concert.
I believe that "William Byrd Suite" thing (from that concert) is also on youtube, but that puts me to sleep.
I'm thinking "Toccata Marziale" was also on that concert (and on youtube)... to me: boring.
hey...
I JUST NOW remembered that this was on that concert, looked for it, and - sure enough - the same person stuck it on youtube:
WILLIAM SCHUMAN - GEORGE WASHINGTON BRIDGE
(ALSO misidentified as being conducted by Bob Foster, but ACTUALLY conducted by Fred Fennell)
I'm hearing this (other than "live") for the FIRST time:



For those who know these people...
Jon Burgess (trumpet professor at Texas Christian), Susan K. Smith (retired trombone - Nashville Symphony), Chuck Seipp retired from Pershings Own), Jay Wanamaker (percussion - Yamaha guy), and some others - who are sort-of "names" - were on that bandstand.

Speaking of Miraphone 84's...I was using one, and played that comical little tuba/piccolo duet - at the end of the Holst - with that instrument.

[bort2.0]

Well, perhaps the stories I heard were not representative, but that's all I know and heard... Not a nice guy. But also, when does "nice guy" translate to conductor of the best of the best wind ensembles?

For that matter, I've heard of and experienced personally plenty of brusque, rude, or worse moments with some common name tuba heros. Rolls off my back, but still remember it.

[bloke]

Well, perhaps the stories I heard were not representative, but that's all I know and heard... Not a nice guy. But also, when does "nice guy" translate to conductor of the best of the best wind ensembles?

For that matter, I've heard of and experienced personally plenty of brusque, rude, or worse moments with some common name tuba heros. Rolls off my back, but still remember it.

maybe...
...since we were prepared to play the charts...(??)

[hrender]

There's a good video of Fennell rehearsing Lincolnshire Posy with the USN band. I like his style and attention to detail.

[Doc]

One of my pet peeves is inappropriate, too-fast tempi. Conductors and performers both can be guilty. When I was in high school I had several private lessons with Phillip Catelinet, who was teaching at Carnegie-Mellon University
in Pittsburgh at the time. Now, I know he is somewhat controversial, his playing was not universally admired, but all of that aside, he did do the premier performance of the Vaughn Williams Concerto, and worked with Vaughn Williams personally. So if anyone on earth knew how fast it was supposed to go, it would be him. I was trying to play the Concerto, at that age, on a 3 valve BBb. I know, chutzpah, right? But one of the things I clearly remember him saying was that I was trying to take the first and third movements too fast, and he bemoaned the fact that most modern players took those movements too fast also. Including the recordings students were modeling. He would make a face and say “That’s not how V.W. wanted it!”.

I heard a piano player playing “The Maple Leaf Rag” on TV recently and it was performed so fast that the melodic lines blurred and the whole piece no longer made any musical sense. It was just showing off. I thought “This is a perfect example example of ‘just because it can be done doesn’t mean it should be done’”

I appreciate the work-around on the Holst Second Suite, but with all due respect it would not be necessary if the conductor took it at the intended speed. I have played the Second Suite. It was a long time ago but as I recall I played that passage as written.

To all musical performers and conductors, I would say “Lighten up folks, it’s not a race!”. And when preparing a piece, if you are using recordings as your model, listen to as many versions as you are able. Note any tempo differences between the versions. And try to get into the composer’s head. Note how he or she used the same tempo markings in other pieces. Take into account stylistic considerations. What is the composer trying to get across?

I suppose it’s close to being a musical heretic to say a conductor with the status of Frederick Fennell is wrong. But if a piece of music is marked Allegro moderato and he takes it Molto Allegro, then I’m sorry. Wrong is exactly what he was.

Excellent points about musicality and composers intentions, style, etc..

For my own edification: What tempos did Catelinet say RVW intended? Maybe it's just me, but I think that would be important information to know. At least helpful so as to understand the original intentions before the arteeeest "makes it his own."

When I hear - specifically - youtube recordings of brass quintet music being played "as fast as physically possible" (often: sounding comical) I immediate suspect that it's a quintet consisting of graduate students. ie. "This is absolutely as fast as we can play this, so this must - then - be the appropriate tempo."

Empire Brass playing My Spirit Be Joyful - Bach We play that every Easter, and the trombone player always does a great job with the proper tempo. He asked me once how fast I wanted to go. I told him, "Anything short of Empire Brass is fine." His reply was, "NOT going to be a problem."

But, if you are a show band (a showing off band), some of this is to be expected. I think Fennell has a streak of that in his approach. BTW, I have a couple of long-time friends who worked a few times under Fennell, and they have said many times he was an absolute delight, both personally and professionally.

The Holst 4th movement doesn't sound "comical" or "bad" when played quite fast, which is probably why (in addition to it being the final movement) so many directors/conductors bump up the tempo on that movement. That having been said, the Dargason (a centuries-old English country tune) does sound better at the appropriate tempo.

' nuff said.

Indeed, sir... indeed.

[DonO.]

The first movement of the VW is marked Allegro moderato, quarter note =96. That is clear enough, but the problem is that it’s routinely ignored and done much faster than that. Catelinet said the VW intended the first movement to be reminiscent of a dignified British brass band march. Think the tempo of Holst First Suite in Eb third movement. He felt that most players get the slow second movement pretty well, that’s not usually a problem. We only had several lessons and I never worked on the third movement too much. We did talk about it though and he thought the marked tempo of quarter note=150 was pushing it a bit. I have no idea whether the marked tempi are Vaughn
william’s or added by an editor. My encounter with the man was relatively brief and a long time ago but that’s how I remember it. His biggest issue was with how the first movement is performed. I considered studying further with him but he clued me in that he was retiring soon and moving back to England. Hope these little scraps are somewhat helpful.

Another thought: it seems to me that British idea of “march tempo” is different from the American idea. The British seem to like a slower march (90-96) and Americans prefer things a bit faster (120 or so).

[bloke]

sidebar: Ralph Vaughan Williams - Tuba Concerto

If someone asks me if I would play a "solo" with their group (or in a recital - and even though I can play all three movements of this with no sheet music), this piece (other than the 2nd movement) is somewhat low on my list of offerings/suggestions.

Tempo-wise, I believe that the first movement lives around 100 bpm (perhaps 104, but no faster...otherwise, it's comical and/or "blurry"...ie. "What was that...??")

The second movement lives around 50 bpm or 52 bpm.

The third movement is best around 150 bpm (as marked).

I played it (several years ago) on a joint recital with my son-in-law at UNT (with Don and Brian in the audience - along with their students).

With no false modesty, I played it quite well...and afterwards they cracked a couple of jokes with my re: "Tennessee relaxed version" or something to that effect. Later, it dawned on me (after stumbling across various recent-era-upload youtube videos) that they were referring to the first movement tempo (a good bit quicker than the Oxford piano edition's 96 pbm, but probably no faster than 104). I'm guessing that their students (ref: my remark about "graduate student brass quintets") get up on stage and play that movement "as fast as they can" (again) "because they can".

fwiw and just in my opinion, the Oxford edition(s) is/are disasters. Much closer to original intent (I suspect) is the manuscript rental score's solo line (in the score), both referring to hundreds fewer articulation marking, and note (pitches) errata. Roger Bobo has spoken to this, and far more people (obviously) take stock in his opinions than mine - though our opinions concur.

...and so many people worship paper (with fewer and fewer people having been even born when that piece premiered - nor understand why and who so heavily edited it) that it's difficult encourage anyone to rethink or consider anything other than "Oxford-Oxford-Oxford".

bloke "again: much ado over (nearly) nothing...It's just not a very well-written piece."

[Doc]

The first movement of the VW is marked Allegro moderato, quarter note =96. That is clear enough, but the problem is that it’s routinely ignored and done much faster than that. Catelinet said the VW intended the first movement to be reminiscent of a dignified British brass band march. Think the tempo of Holst First Suite in Eb third movement. He felt that most players get the slow second movement pretty well, that’s not usually a problem. We only had several lessons and I never worked on the third movement too much. We did talk about it though and he thought the marked tempo of quarter note=150 was pushing it a bit. I have no idea whether the marked tempi are Vaughn
william’s or added by an editor. My encounter with the man was relatively brief and a long time ago but that’s how I remember it. His biggest issue was with how the first movement is performed. I considered studying further with him but he clued me in that he was retiring soon and moving back to England. Hope these little scraps are somewhat helpful.

Thanks! And a great story, too!

Another thought: it seems to me that British idea of “march tempo” is different from the American idea. The British seem to like a slower march (90-96) and Americans prefer things a bit faster (120 or so).

Amen! One of my peeves for years is American band directors playing British (and German) marches with American style and American tempos (sometimes aggressive tempos even for American marches). Is it that hard to do a little research, a little listening, understand style, and actually serve the music? Geez!

Many years ago, the previous director of the Houston Brass Band played Colonel Bogey at 132. All of us were quietly saying, "WTF???"
Current director is around 110, and that feels much better.

None of us particularly cared to haul ass through Irish Tune either.

[DonO.]

Out of curiosity I wanted to see what I could find on the Interwebs. I was very surprised to find out there’s a web site dedicated to Catelinet (philipcatelinet.com). On the web site is a copy of an article he wrote called “The Truth About the Vaughn Williams Tuba Concerto”. Fascinating read!

[Doc]

Out of curiosity I wanted to see what I could find on the Interwebs. I was very surprised to find out there’s a web site dedicated to Catelinet (philipcatelinet.com). On the web site is a copy of an article he wrote called “The Truth About the Vaughn Williams Tuba Concerto”. Fascinating read!

I'll check it out.

[Rick Denney]

I’ve always thought standard British March tempo was 108, rather than 120 for American marches.

Re: Catlinet and RVW. The premier recording of the RVW was made by Catlinet with the LSO on the day following the premier performance. The recording is available, and I’ve listened to it a number of times.

But every story I’ve heard from the RVW historiography side (rather than through Catlinet’s recollections) was that the two of them met routinely and the result was a compromise between RVW’s intentions and Catlinet’s abilities and preferences. RVW was practical and he was also not a jerk. And he was old and wise by that time, and had a sense of humor that is really evident in the work.

Not all performances capture that humor, including some of the beautifully played renditions from later virtuosos like Lind and Fletcher. Hans Nickel (Cantuballada) nailed that aspect. I have a recording of a performance of an aging Bill Bell from the early 50’s, when he was subbing for Harvey Phillips who had a conflicting military responsibility. Bell’s performance wasn’t perfect but he caught the humor aspect. The orchestra was also not perfect (The Little Orchestra Society of New York).

Joe sent me an annotation years ago of corrections to the printed Oxford edition, and as he predicted I never got around to notating them for wider dissemination, as I promised to do. I still have it around here somewhere. I never forget promises I make, even if I don’t always execute them. :(

(Wouldn’t a tuba concerto composed like the astonishing Symphony in F-minor No. 4 have been a wonderful thing? Except that probably nobody could play it.)

Rick “a RVW fan from before even being aware of the tuba concerto, or really even his band music” Denney

[DonO.]

I think that, because those “compromise” sessions were at RVW’s residence, with no one present except RVW, his wife, and Catelinet, Catelinet’s recollections are worthy of study, even if they don’t tell the whole story. According to the article I referenced, VW most emphatically did not want any input on changing pitches, but he was willing to compromise on tempo, phrasing, articulation, and such. There were some notes that were cut from one of the cadenzas in the original version because Catelinet didn’t think he could pull them off. I have heard that in some editions those cuts were put back in? I just don’t know.

I apologize for derailing this discussion from bloke’s very useful suggestion about the Holst 2nd Suite. I only brought up the VW in the first place because part of the original discussion was about inappropriately fast tempi, and that’s the piece that immediately popped into my head as a perfect example.

[bloke]

There wasn't much more to say about the suggestion (other than to like it or not like it), so - topically - the thread is "wide open".

I think that, because those “compromise” sessions were at RVW’s residence, with no one present except RVW, his wife, and Catelinet, Catelinet’s recollections are worthy of study, even if they don’t tell the whole story. According to the article I referenced, VW most emphatically did not want any input on changing pitches, but he was willing to compromise on tempo, phrasing, articulation, and such. There were some notes that were cut from one of the cadenzas in the original version because Catelinet didn’t think he could pull them off. I have heard that in some editions those cuts were put back in? I just don’t know.

I apologize for derailing this discussion from bloke’s very useful suggestion about the Holst 2nd Suite. I only brought up the VW in the first place because part of the original discussion was about inappropriately fast tempi, and that’s the piece that immediately popped into my head as a perfect example.

[Ace]

Some of Fennell's tempo choices were, uh, interesting. In general, I liked his work. Almost thirty years ago, I was playing 2nd horn in a good quality community concert band. The 1st horn was Fennell's second wife, Jennifer (?) She gave first-hand commentary about Fennell's decisions, including his occasional too-fast tempos, so fast that his musicians had a hard time keeping up. All in all, he was a very fine musician.

Ace

[bloke]

comment about the topic:

At "Allegro Moderato", I find the articulation to sound "interesting" - sort of like a spring...(no?)

[Jperry1466]

Amen! One of my peeves for years is American band directors playing British (and German) marches with American style and American tempos (sometimes aggressive tempos even for American marches). Is it that hard to do a little research, a little listening, understand style, and actually serve the music? Geez!

Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes, Doc! It grieves me that the medium that is the very foundation of wind bands is being forgotten at best, and pushed away at worst. In judging high school band contests the past several years, I have seen/heard the loss of understanding of this great form. Young directors question (at least in Texas) why a March ("Of the director's choice") is still a requirement on the program. I hear large school, otherwise well-taught bands performing marches intended for 1st or 2nd year middle school players, just to "satisfy" the requirement. Even those who do play a "real" march (Sousa, King, Fillmore, et al - no, I'm not a fan of "concert" marches) show little or no understanding of march style or proper tempo, much less the difference in American, German, British, Italian marches. We are told to only judge the performance and not the "interpretation", but it is hard to sit there and listen to a great march being butchered. Sorry to hijack the thread even further, but you hit the nail on the head.