Kanstul alloy

[tubazach07]

I see from time to time people bring up the Kanstul alloy as some gimmick and quick way to make a buck. I personally know and worked with both Tom Treece and Robert Carpenter the two men who discovered through scientific ways to bring back the York alloy and bring back old York tubas for modern day use. Tom doesn't like to be talked about online so out of respect to him I will say he is an expert in manufacturing has an extensive knowledge of tuba history and building. Robert Carpenter is the the tuba player of the Orlando Phil and also a engineer who has worked for NASA and the Army Core of Engineering.

What makes a York a York is obviously more than just the metal but also the manufacturing, the metal, the bracing and of course the design. Tom and Rob's goal was to bring the American tubas back to the hands of the modern musician, equip Kanstul with the ability to make exact copy of a york 6/4 bell for the 6/4 tubas Tom and Rob where building or for anyone else needing a York 6/4 bell (one of the Kasntul 6/4 York bells is currently on the Nirschle York that Mike Roylance plays on since the Nirschle's bell got crushed in transit), and be able to make new parts for old Yorks. They did so out of their own pockets.

Tom and Rob bought the tooling and bell mandrel for Kanstul to make the 6/4 York alloy bells to ensure the bells were properly shaped like the originals, helped Kasntul manufacturer the other York bell shapes for their other York line of tubas, and paid for the tests on samples taken from original York metal. They sent multiple York metal samples to be tested. After receiving those test results they met with a metal manufacture to produce the York Alloy. In the production of the Kanstul line of American tubas to include the Orchestra Grand (based of the Martin and York), the 90 C (based off a York 33 with the valves in the front and cut to CC), the 66T a copy of the York 33, and the F tuba both Tom and Rob assembled the prototypes in their houses. After a good prototype was made they would fly to California to help teach Kanstul how to make the tubas. Again they did this all out of their own pockets. Before I left Florida, I was working with Tom on rebuilding a old York 33. The bell and bottom bow were not salvageable so Tom was able to use a bell and bottom bow from the Kanstul 33T (a copy of the York 33) and it fit perfectly and sounded like a York.

Before Kanstul closed their doors Tom and Rob had produced a protyope 6/4 tuba that they were hoping Kasntul would make. It would of been the only American made 6/4 on the market. Sadly Kasntul went out of business. If you are in Florida drop by and listen to Rob Carpenter play the prototype with the Orlando Phil it is an amazing tuba and I got to play test it.

There is talk on tube net that Eastman is making their 6/4 tuba with a Kanstul bell. I do know that Eastman sent Tom and Rob a 6/4 tuba to exam and their findings were the bell shape was not exact to the original Yorks. My guess is that Eastman bought the 6/4 tuba tooling from BAC and will be producing the bells since BAC from the beginning had no real desire to try and make tubas( don't quote me on that).

All in all I wanted everyone to know that the Kanstul line of tubas and York alloy was done out of love for tubas and wanting to bring the American made tubas back to life not to make a quick buck. I am sure I am probably missing some details. I know that Lee Stofer was very involved in the Kanstul line of tubas as well.

[KingTuba1241X]

I was just over at Sawday's shop last week and got a close look at one of the Prototype 6/4 Eastmans they mock up lead pipes and stuff to. It was a Red brass body and yellow bell, looked cool but he mentioned something about the alloy all being identical in the musical manufacturing world and that they aren't making anything special for brass horns. Something to that affect and that it's like a placebo effect. I wonder what Kanstul was really doing if that statement is true then? Did they have a secret metal distributor?

[tubazach07]

Yes they did have a metal distributor located within the US that made the alloy for them based off the multiple tests done to determine the metal make up of the original York metal samples.

[tubazach07]

For the record other than knowing that Eastman sent a 6/4 tuba to Tom and Bob to get their opinion I have no idea what Eastman is doing with their 6/4. I only speculated that they were using the Kanstul 6/4 bell tooling to make new bells that have come up in conversation on tubenet.

[bort2.0]

Is the Stofer 6/4 CC at all related to the Kanstul story?

I was really saddened when Kanstul closed. I had considered their 5/4 CC a few times in the past, but was always warned against it. Older ones had funky ergonomics. All of them were inconsistent, and some needed an awful lot of slide pulling, even if they did in fact have "the sound."


I always figured the issue was low production numbers and too few generations to get things figured out. It's not like the PT6, where they have been produced in quantity for many years, and have had a lot of things worked out.

I also wished that Kanstul would have made a rotary instrument, but that's another story.

I'd love to own an American made modern rotary CC tuba. At one point,Lee Stofer offered to make me one of his 4/4 tubas with a rotary valve set... But I don't have the $ for that,, and honestly, the form of the G50 never had really suited me well (wide bell, short stack).

Rambling... Impressive that Tom and Rob spent so much of their own money on the project. Makes me wonder at what point Kanstul said "no"...

[tubazach07]

The Stofer 6/4 is a Martin Mammoth body, Kanstul 6/4 York alloy tuba bell, Kanstul valve section and leadpipe. Lee obviously knows more about that project but I believe it started out by someone asking him to convert a Martin Mammoth to a CC tuba. I got to play one and he currently has one at the shop I think. They are great playing tubas!

The Stofer 6/4 is not the same as the prototype tuba that Rob plays on.

[KingTuba1241X]

Yes they did have a metal distributor located within the US that made the alloy for them based off the multiple tests done to determine the metal make up of the original York metal samples.

Do you have any idea who? This would be extremely expensive unless the distributor had other uses for the metal. Curious.

[tubazach07]

Yes they did have a metal distributor located within the US that made the alloy for them based off the multiple tests done to determine the metal make up of the original York metal samples.

Do you have any idea who? This would be extremely expensive unless the distributor had other uses for the metal. Curious.

Honestly I don’t know who the company was. The Kasntul line of “York” tubas were not cheap.

[tubazach07]

Is the Stofer 6/4 CC at all related to the Kanstul story?

I was really saddened when Kanstul closed. I had considered their 5/4 CC a few times in the past, but was always warned against it. Older ones had funky ergonomics. All of them were inconsistent, and some needed an awful lot of slide pulling, even if they did in fact have "the sound."


I always figured the issue was low production numbers and too few generations to get things figured out. It's not like the PT6, where they have been produced in quantity for many years, and have had a lot of things worked out.

I also wished that Kanstul would have made a rotary instrument, but that's another story.

I'd love to own an American made modern rotary CC tuba. At one point,Lee Stofer offered to make me one of his 4/4 tubas with a rotary valve set... But I don't have the $ for that,, and honestly, the form of the G50 never had really suited me well (wide bell, short stack).

Rambling... Impressive that Tom and Rob spent so much of their own money on the project. Makes me wonder at what point Kanstul said "no"...

Kanstul had a bad problem of trying to sell tubas before all the kinks were sorted out. That’s why the Orchestra Grand’s wrap changed from the original one that had the long main tuning slide. It’s also why their F tuba wasn’t quite right.

Making tubas especially in the US is not a profitable source of income. Also it was better if you lived close to the Kanstul factory to be able to play test your tuba before they sent it to finish. For the Orchestra Grand depending on how you played they would either shorten it or lengthen it. I was really saddened by their closing as well. The orchestra grand when made right was truly a great tuba to play.

[KingTuba1241X]

Yeah I got to play both the Grand CC and the Grand BBb at a Tuba Christmas one year they brought both horns for demo to the event. Couldn't tell about sound outdoors in a loud environment but it "felt" pretty good and the valves were top notch.

[the elephant]

All metallurgical stuff aside, whatever happened to Zig having come across the shop notebooks of Reynolds where "the secret alloy of York was fully described"? Was that then a fabrication or what? This was hyped to the extreme for a long time and then — nothing.

Further, this alloy has been described to me as being like the AmBronze used by a certain French horn maker, that it is brass with more tin in it than the trace amounts usually found in generic yellow brass, that it is like halfway between brass and bronze, like 70% copper, 15% zinc and 15% tin. Anyone know for sure what it is?

[DandyZ629]

All metallurgical stuff aside, whatever happened to Zig having come across the shop notebooks of Reynolds where "the secret alloy of York was fully described"? Was that then a fabrication or what? This was hyped to the extreme for a long time and then — nothing.

Further, this alloy has been described to me as being like the AmBronze used by a certain French horn maker, that it is brass with more tin in it than the trace amounts usually found in generic yellow brass, that it is like halfway between brass and bronze, like 70% copper, 15% zinc and 15% tin. Anyone know for sure what it is?

Would that be similar to the Reynolds "Bronze-o-Lyte" bell from their Contempora bass trombones? If so... I absolutely love the sound those produce.

[bloke]

To date, I've not encountered any Grand Rapids brass instruments either as reddish in color - or as malleable - as those California tubas.

I'm in my mid-60's...Perhaps someday (??) I'll encounter one that that is the same alloy as the California instruments.

=========================

Conn instruments (of the better part of a century ago) - which were scheduled for silver plating - were fabricated of 80:20 (slightly reddish) brass, in order to improve the bonding of the silver to the instrument (rather than a "copper strike" step). fwiw...The upper-line JP instruments are fabricated of the same alloy...but this (entire post) is ground that I (and "y'all") have covered before, and I'm boring a lot of people (yes?) by bumping this thread...

[matt g]

I prefer the tales of long ago of tubas being made by spent ammunition casings and that being the deciding factor on the tone these tubas would produce.

[edfirth]

It's very close to "naval brass" and they looked all over the place to find a supply of it. And I can only point to the trumpets and trombones that offer different mixes of brass to give it at least some validity. Ed

[bloke]

I'm not a metals expert, but I know JUST enough to be called out (by knowledgeable people) as an "idiotic ignoramus".

I should probably use google before posting...but I seem (??) to be remembering that naval brass is one of the LOWER copper-content brass alloys (quite low, as I recall...??), whereas (again) the Kanstul tubas are QUITE red (and - again - very malleable) - strongly hinting at a very HIGH copper content...

I'd be just about willing to buy into the Grand-Rapids-York-just-about-like-naval-brass thing, because (besides the Grand Rapids tuba brass being quite light yellow in color) - when I work on them - they're pretty stiff, and they "ask" me to work them pretty vigorously to get their dents and creases smoothed out.

...so what gives ?
...and I also wonder why K never made (at least, that I ever saw) any real front-action tuba valvesets, and everything appeared to be improvised from top-action valvesets.

...' no time to understand 'em, just dent-machine and shine 'em...

[tubazach07]

A lot of good stuff here. In terms of what the actual make up of the Kanstul brass is I don’t know. When I was apprenticing under Tom Kanstul was still in business so it was a company secret.


My goal with this post was not so much to discuss the validity of the Kanstul Alloy(although you are more than welcome to discuss it).
The main goal of the post was to provided a background for how the metal and the Kanstul tubas came to be. I am sure as time goes on and people sell their Kanstul tubas the new buyers might want some background on how the tubas came to be.

[tbonesullivan]

These days, it's not that hard to find out the composition of a metal sample. One of the mods on the now defunct trombone forum had access to a gas chromatograph (or something like that) to test samples from mouthpieces. There of course were stories of some "special brass alloy" used for the vintage Mount Vernon and New York Vincent Bach Mouthpieces.

The question I have is whether brass makers back then had their own foundries for melting down and rolling sheet brass.

[matt g]

The question I have is whether brass makers back then had their own foundries for melting down and rolling sheet brass.

I think this is doubtful. Likely the reason a lot of these brass manufacturers were in industrial areas is/was access to bar and sheet stock.

[BopEuph]

@tubazach07, are you local? I live in Orlando and both those guys are great guys!

I have a Kanstul 900/4B, and love it. It's the one that bases its design on the Martin Mammoth.

@bloke, never thought about the fact that Kanstul uses top action valve designs in their front action, but it makes a lot of sense now. My only gripe about my horn is my wrist has a weird angle when playing. If tuba fingering was anywhere near the demand of bass, I might have developed CTS, but a few hours a day on the horn doesn't seem to be too big an issue. If only the thumb ring was much easier to move, but it's soldered on the valve casing itself, so I figured it's best to leave well enough alone. The slide placement is taking some getting used to, too.