Miraphone model 98 B-flat playing characteristics and learning curve - VIDEO added on PAGE 10

[djwpe]

I remember all of that…!!
…and I also remember that Baadsvik guy hanging over me when I was trying to play that instrument and listen to it. It was a little bit distracting, but I try to never let myself become too distracted.

It’s funny how someone picking up an instrument and playing it in the middle range at mezzo forte tends to attract the attention of some types of players.
As far as whether I should’ve bought it right then or not for $12,000 or $13,000 or whatever it was… that was twice as much money (spending-power-wise) as it is today, and that’s really why I kept my money in my pocket. $6000 at that moment in time…?? I would’ve walked into a restroom stall, pulled that much out of my pocket, and bought it on site.

I remember that ITEC. Was my first.

[bloke]

I mentioned earlier that this instrument seemed to have a limit as far as the type of sound at the top end - compared to 3/4 inch bore 5/4 and 6/4 size instruments. In other words, the only type of resonance that I seemed to be able to achieve at the loud was the “big round“ type.

Since then, I figured out what type of air and embouchure are required to get more “nose“ out of this instrument, for those few types of times when that type of sound is called for.

Following my own advice, I experimented around to figure out what the instrument needs, rather than blowing into it the way that I was accustomed to doing, and found “the trick“… but not really a trick, but just the way that the instrument needs to be “fed“ in order to achieve a “fist” type of sound.
… so now (as just one of many examples), if I need the type of “angry, yet controlled” C below the staff that is required in Tchaik’ 5 - right after the bassoon descending arpeggio, I’ve got it with this instrument - as well as the entire low range.

[matt g]

Thought it would be worth posting this Miraphone tweet from five years ago.

[bloke]

That’s interesting.
Does Mike own that ?
I claim no responsibility for the choice, but one of the American Miraphone reps called me on the phone several years ago, told me that Mike was looking at a 497 and 98, asked me which one (me…??? What do I know…?? ), and of course anyone reading this knows which one I recommended…

(I never heard back, so I find this picture to be particularly interesting.)

[bloke]

The orchestra apparently just threw this up on Facebook.
There were a lot of microphones, so I don’t know how well you can hear the mighty (B-flat tuba) low C’s in the short Olympic Fanfare excerpt.
I used my F tuba on Zarathustra, because it offers the clearest-sounding and easiest-to-control double-low C (substitute for the organ and contrabassoon).
… but bloke, rotary F tubas don’t play the C just below the staff, and that’s the last note of this excerpt.
I don’t think there are any cimbasso things in this clip, though I played it more than anything else in the show - The most prominent being that “lots of teeth” John Williams NFL fanfare (full version)…pitched in B-flat, then B, then C. …lots of fast/wonky-fingerings low-range pitches. (My F cimbasso is 5 valves + #2 trigger, and (for an F instrument) I’m accustomed to the 4+2 system…so a bunch of semi-frantic trigger-pushes for (5234) low G.

I can’t seem to get a direct link to the Facebook video, but scroll down to the VERY recent video.
https://m.facebook.com/2034328873296282/

[matt g]

I’m not sure if Mike owns it or not. I think he’s been looking for a BBb for a while, but not sure what he owns. Most of his media is with his Nirschl with the replacement bell from Kanstul.

[bloke]

OK...
I've been playing through tons of vocalises and Bach transcriptions ("learning" B-flat fingers, and learning to negotiate smooth/expressive/musical/marketable movement between pitches), but it is time to move on to technical accuracy and velocity with this thing.

What this tuba does BEST (and I'm convinced that it does it better than any previously-owned instruments) is to put out a discernible (ie. "THAT's a TUBA making that sound") foundational bass for a large ensemble, without relying on growl/overplaying and without (without having to "overplay" to overcome this) 6/4 C tuba "woofiness".

With a 21.2mm bore and a huge body size with everything 1/8th LONGER than even a C instrument - though - it requires a REALLY accurate balance of "buzz" and "air" (no...not "plenty of", but "exactly right") to avoid blurps and other types of misfires and fuzzy articulations. It sort of helped out my ego a bit when communicating back-and-forth with a "super-star" friend/acquaintance who (also playing a good big of 6/4 B-flat - these days - but with a smaller bore size and piston valveset) asked (admitting to being mortal), but "how do you avoid the B-flat tuba [articulation/accuracy] problems?" (I can't remember their slang for those undesirable things.)

What I'm doing now is to revisit the old Kopprasch French horn book (which I first went through when c. 17 years old, and later revisited when I purchased an F tuba). Once I've gone through this book two or three times (working on velocity/accuracy/musicality - ie. overcoming "that's really good for a tuba" shortcomings), I'll go on to some more difficult "technical" exercises book...and then another...and then another. I guess this is supposed to be an "uphill battle" (re: aging, etc.), but I'm just not going to dwell on "how hard this is 'supposed' to be".

Again...That is NOT the stuff that a tuba such as this one does best, but it's stuff that I NEED to do well, in order to feel completely comfortable with this monster. It gives me easily-achievable very good intonation (better than anything I've ever messed with in this size range - mostly two feet shorter, and with a mere 19mm bore size), and I just need for "huge" and "B-flat" to feel like a great old comfortable pair of work boots (which I use for ballet dancing ).

something else: This thing wants to VIBRATE. pp or ppp are NOT the things that it embraces readily. Those things - with this instrument - require absolute "buzz" perfection - as well as that perfect buzz being perfectly balanced with air flow. I'm trying to not frustrate myself too much, and mostly working on p and up. One of my music directors (who leads one of my freeway philharmonics) often reminds individual musicians (who are playing particular passages a bit too confidentially) "If the composer didn't mean for that to be heard, they wouldn't have written it into your part". I have other tubas that do "whisper soft" REALLY well...I'll work on SOME "whisper soft" stuff with this huge instrument, but mostly (for now) I'm going to concentrate on accuracy/focus/music-making at the lowest-and-up volume levels that this thing seems to be designed to achieve.

This is also not the best tuba-family instrument for very short-lasting sounds. (Needless to say - for those who own one - the cimbasso does the "short sounds" thing the very best.) Some of my personal tricks (with these very large tubas which tend to "ring over" - long after the player has stopped entering energy into them) are to quickly raise the valves quickly (to disrupt the resonating air column) stop with the tongue, and other "no-no's" which we were taught to NEVER do - but which are useful, from time-to-time.

I still have a handful of improvements to execute - regarding the instrument itself. The only one which might affect the playability is a #3 circuit thing, and I'm not sure whether that "tuning opportunity" will prove to be an improvement or a distraction...If a distraction, It's not something that's going to require that I deal with something "no matter what".

There really was no reason to move over to this instrument (at this point in my life - which includes all previous points in my life - I just don't see myself flying across the Atlantic to audition for a position in some central European orchestra), but it's fascinating, and (as - probably - the highest-paid symphony orchestra tuba player told me about switching tubas after several decades...a different person other than the one referred to above) "I guess I'm trying to keep it interesting, so I decided to chase tuba-playing down a different rabbit hole".

[cjk]

...

There really was no reason to move over to this instrument (at this point in my life - which includes all previous points in my life - I just don't see myself flying across the Atlantic to audition for a position in some central European orchestra), but it's fascinating, and (as - probably - the highest-paid symphony orchestra tuba player told me about switching tubas after several decades...a different person other than the one referred to above) "I guess I'm trying to keep it interesting, so I decided to chase tuba-playing down a different rabbit hole".

Isn't that realistically the reason why most folks buy new tubas?

I am also curious what combination of your mouthpiece parts you are using on that tuba if you're willing to share that.

[bloke]

run-of-the-mill Sellmansberger Symphony...

...plenty of clarity yet broadness (broadness being the attraction for this type of instrument, and clarity - derived from resonance - being the attraction for a B-flat version of this type of instrument... with the irony being that playing a B-flat instrument requires more player accuracy (me: striving to step up to the plate) - particularly when playing music in keys in which a very large percentage of music - music which is more commonly heard - is written: C, G, D, A, E, B minor...)

Again, the first time I played one of these - and sort of thought about the possibility of owning one someday - was nearly a decade ago. I've played quite a few B-flat instruments in this size range, but - and hopefully without raising anyone's ire - this is the only one I've ever encountered that I deemed to be "worth it" ("it" being "the additional work").

[pjv]

Maybe try a solo/profundo to add some resistance at the get go. (Or some between size?).
Sometimes this helps me to get my focus. Once this starts to feel a bit cramped I use the symphony so I can go full throttle.
I use this trick when I get back from vacation.

[martyneilan]

I have to ask about one note which I think CC tuba does much better than BBb:
F# in the staff.
It is in the upper middle range / lower upper range.
But you are blowing through so much tubing on a BBb with valves 2&3 for about 22.5 feet vs. simply using 2nd valve on a CC for about 17 feet. That is a roughly 5 1/2 foot difference.
Thoughts on the 98 vs. your old Thor on that specific note?

(As one of my former teachers famously said, "Blow and count, you dumb f---")

[bloke]

I have to ask about one note which I think CC tuba does much better than BBb:
F# in the staff.
It is in the upper middle range / lower upper range.
But you are blowing through so much tubing on a BBb with valves 2&3 for about 22.5 feet vs. simply using 2nd valve on a CC for about 17 feet. That is a roughly 5 1/2 foot difference.
Thoughts on the 98 vs. your old Thor on that specific note?

(As one of my former teachers famously said, "Blow and count, you dumb f---")

no doubt, that requires (embouchure, not mouthpiece) focus, and is played more often that the neighboring G-sharp.
Thankfully, it's (that F-sharp with default slide positions is) nicely in tune.
There's a drainage (condensation) issue with the #3 circuit on this instrument, which I'm going to address. It gets ahead of me occasionally, and certainly doesn't help things.

[bloke]

I believe I'm still in denial regarding my ability to read bass or treble clef at sight and play a 5-valved BB-flat tuba.
(Sure...I play a lot of bass clef stuff, but I really don't care for much "tuba music", the overwhelming majority of written western music melodies are written in treble clef, and - therefore - I tend to read/play a good bit of treble clef stuff when I play the various tubas.)

Hey...I played a 3-valve BB-flat in high school, and can play a B-flat compensating euphonium pretty darn well at sight, so I automatically can read and play BB-flat tuba at sight perfectly well.

bloke: You suck.

Yesterday, I pulled the really nicely-engraved (Edition Peters - big pages / big black notes and staves) Schumann [English] "Three Romances" (oboe & piano) from the file cabinet...I'm sorta fond of the third one...

Of course, it's in treble clef.
I made all sorts of reading errors ("C tuba" stupid crap, etc., etc.) before I finally got myself in gear and starting playing the (written) middle-C's with 1-3, the E's with 2nd valve, etc., etc...

[bloke]

The Schumann thing is coming along nicely...and I found a youtube accompaniment with (important, yes?) an interpretation/tempi that I like.

I'm also pleased with this thing's intonation against that on the recorded accompaniment.
Most of those accompaniments are recorded on very nice digital pianos (with really good "samples" and impeccably tuned).

I'm quite determined to be able to play "songs" (phrasing, legato, expression...you know: just like "real music" ) with this thing, rather than just contrabass tuba orchestral blattcerpts, obnoxious depth charges, and such. Blattcerpts (after a short while) get REALLY boring, and just make one wonder if those pieces will ever actually be encountered, again, on any gigs.

I FOUND my (previously misplaced) ZOOM recorder and FOUND my (previously misplaced) fancy German microphones.

I just wish I knew how to use this stuff.
I was GIVEN the ZOOM thing (by someone to whom I gave a really nice Soundwear bag - which fit their instrument perfectly, but fit nothing I owned...so I guess they felt like they should give me something in return...??) but I barely got the thing to workin' one time, and haven't gotten it out since. I did notice that it does lots of cool stuff...were it that I knew how to work it.

...and those mics (back when I would record myself with my DAT machine - back in the vaulted-ceiling bank building we used to own (where we ran our store) reflect the sound REALLY accurately...I suspect a tad better than the built-in ZOOM recording mics. This log cabin doesn't have ceilings - per se - so there's "room" to record a tuba sound, in here.

My son-in-law (as did many, during the shutdown) became quite the fine recording technician. I would like to work with him, but (well...) he lives 13 hours away, and stays really busy.

EDIT: 1/1/23
I worked on the Schumann some more, went back and reviewed some Bach, and started back through the Kopprasch book, again.
I got up to #30 - though "truth or consequences" #29 (playing the small notes, written up above). Those "small notes" are "fun" on the F tuba, and "work" (like driving an 18-wheeler at 80 mph on a sheet of ice) on this thing.

[bloke]

Someone - sure...one-or-more of you who have make it clear that you're not fond of me - needs to let me know if you find/judge this thread to be self-serving or self-indulgent. Otherwise, I'm going to continue...

I suspect that very few (particularly, far fewer North Americans) are shopping for "professional" grade "kaiser" and rotary B-flat tubas, but might (??) be curious as to my head-first dive into this (again) "rabbit-hole".

One of my past teachers
(known to most all...not Gene - this time, fwiw...but I'm not going to identify them - just in case they no longer agree with their own advise, or don't appreciate being quoted, or whatever)
taught me a "trick" about negotiating really large tubas...

Pick up the F tuba, and play the passage or entire piece through one or more times, and then go back to the big tuba.

Logic would make it seem as though the opposite would provide more benefit (analogy: running with weights on the legs, etc.), but music isn't supposed to sound as if one is struggling to do it. The listener/patron should only be aware of the music, and not of the instrument or person's voice box, etc. ...so this WORKS, because it allows the performer an experience whereby they can shun the habit of "working hard" to execute the music.

I often forget this trick, but - when I remember to try it (and am UN-lazy enough to ALSO get out the F tuba), dammit if it doesn't work every time.

Here's the thing:

Slurs/leaps/subtleties, etc. are easier on the F tuba...but NOT all that much more difficult on the big tuba...

I have been working on a few "not-composed-for-tuba" (ie. "real music" ) solo pieces.
Some of these - I was "nursing", when they didn't need to be nursed...They just needed to be PLAYED.

One many-times-repeated slur in one of the pieces...I was really nursing that one. OK...It sounded "good for a tuba", but (sorry, but) that's not particularly good. After playing the piece through on the F tuba, I picked this HAT (huge-ass-tuba) back up, and that slur (simply) became a "release" (perfect) rather than sounding nursed...and other things as well, but (again) these posts probably come off as really self-indulgent...so I'll cut it off here...I believe everyone gets the idea.

[MikeMason]

Yes, a lot of your posts are very “about Bloke” centric, but many thought provoking,imagine different possibilities, trial and error ideas and stories come out of your posts. For instance: I’m following you down the Kaiser b flat rabbit hole, but on the cheap. I’m really enjoying my big miraphone. I was making just too much of an oooo(rhymes with shoe) type of sound on my 6/4, especially noticeable on full orchestra play backs. Now I can pick out when the tuba is playing in tuba forward moments while still able to make that ooooo blended sound when I want. I wish the tuba had some modern niceties, the screws would all stay screwed in(even with locktite and clear fingernail polish), a fifth valve, a little more even response etc., but the lack of refinement has its charm too. Even thinking about selling the Eastman. Maybe use the proceeds to modify the Mira or find one with the things I want already done. Enjoying the new challenges and sound. So, thanks Bloke!

[bloke]

@MikeMason
If I had kept my model 90 B flat - which was about 45 in tall or so and featured about a 17-1/3 belt diameter - my plan was to make a lemonade out of lemon - with the very sharp natured tuning characteristics, put a right hand thumb main tuning slide trigger on it with a return spring pulling the main slide back out, mostly using that feature for the very flat fifth partial pitches, and also reconfiguring the fourth circuit so that the fourth slide all the way in would be about right for C and F and pulling it out with the left hand would be just about right for B and E - and also with a return spring.

Both of those features could also be used for some much more minor intonation issues, as (really) the fifth partial D and C sharp - along with the 4 vs. 2-4 tuning discrepancy - were really the only serious intonation problems encountered with that instrument. (I obviously don't know how different yours is from that which I describe.)

My rotors on the 98 are just fast enough (like model 86 valves), as the very large bore size is cut out of what appears to be a model 86 blank. The really big rotors on the model 90 didn't quite seem fast enough, but admittedly I didn't ever break them in - as the instrument was obviously rarely played when I received it - even though nearly fifty years old, plus I didn't play much on it due to the two intonation issues previously described. ...I really didn't enjoy playing fifth partial D with the sixth partial valve combination (1-2, and 2-3 for C-sharp).

I guess there's one other thing with the model 90:
As tall as the thing is, one of my bass trombone colleagues told me that he had trouble hearing it. Having heard it played by a really fine player - who visited here quite a few times to have some repairs done, I knew it wasn't because it wasn't putting enough sound out, but it was just putting the sound out quite a few inches above his ears.

[bloke]

Regarding the small to big practice…

When I had an F, the biggest tuba I had was a 188. Nonetheless, being nimble/agile/facile on tuba to begin the practice session does much to set the mindset.

When I was practicing, it was still 4/4 -> 6/4. If I get more free time and an F again, it’ll likely be F, then 4/4 CC, then 6/4.

Maybe that’s why I also think that my 6/4 is as agile as any of the big horns I’ve had in the past?

Dunno. But setting the mindset is important.

[bloke]

I continue to discover things (what I'm doing wrong / more things cool about B-flat / a few things that require more consideration or effort with B-flat / etc...)

There are a REMARKABLY high quantities (in wind band music as well, but - in particular - in orchestral tuba parts) where the C just below the staff either needs more "nose"/terseness in the the sound or (quite often as well...) just a good hard spanking (such our assistant principals/ROTC instructors/football coaches would deliver c 50 years ago - which left young men limping around for a few days, and left a good bruise for two or three weeks).

With the C tuba, so often I would find myself playing that pitch with 4-5 or 1-3-5, in order to approach that "B-flat tuba" type of ledger-C snarl or snap (and - more-and-more often - I found myself playing that pitch with one of those valve combinations "just because").

With the B-flat tuba, it's already there (if needed).

[bloke]

As the description on YouTube "shorts" has to be located and opened, this is what I left on this video on YouTube.

I haven't played B-flat tubas - other than sousaphone at graveside or in NOLA brass bands - since I was 17. I'm in the process (as well as experiencing the aging process) of not only learning how to play a BB-flat tuba, but - additionally - how to play a German-style "kaiser"/rotary BB-flat tuba..and there's no "fallback" to a C tuba...I sold it !
I may possibly (??) be playing this piece (from which this excerpt was taken) in the fairly-near future, so - in addition to scales/arpeggios/Bach/Schumann/technical etudes/etc. - I'm also working on (and basically relearning) a few "big tuba" orchestral excerpts. I pulled this one out today. I'm certainly not satisfied with this as any sort of "finished product" NOR is this any sort of "hey, check out how great this is [NOT]", but I just thought I would put it up as a bookmark towards my BB-flat tuba progress, as well as being a fairly rare audio example (though recorded with a phone microphone) of the resonance characteristics of a Miraphone model 98 "Siegfried" tuba. oh yeah: ...and - if you want to really be convinced of how bad I suck - listen to it through your tiny little tablet or laptop speakers. LOL

re: "stinger" at the end (not marked) I chose to play the last note that way, due to what's occurring in the score: chaos/noise/etc., along with a simultaneous huge percussion "whack" on the same offbeat,
ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

...also, if your browser doesn't seem to want to play this video inside TubaForum, just click on the YouTube logo (below the video), and play the video at the YouTube website.