Mouthpiece suggestions for my Besson 788 BBb Tuba

[Crymzon1980]

Current mouthpieces I have:

Vicent Bach 24AW
Mirafone C3 (very old)

The reason i need some input is because i usually use these on my Eb Tuba, but when I use them on my BBb Tuba, I feel the upper register notes, mainly my higher F and G above the staff (treble clef), are noticeably sharp even when trying to adjust tuning slides, but are fine in the normal range, but I also believe the sharpness maybe in the upper range could also be due to the dings this tuba has
but I could still use some suggestions for mouthpieces.

[2nd tenor]

I came across this post by chance, whilst looking for something else, and as nobody else has replied I’ll attempt to be useful … but this could all be rubbish and I think the transposed treble clef notation will confuse many people. I suspect that we’re looking at the Eb and F towards the top of the Bass Clef Stave.

As such those higher notes in the range might be both challenging to some players and to your particular instrument which I doubt was designed to be used at that that end of its playing range. (The 788 was at the base of the Besson model range; I have the Eb version and love it but at the end of the day, IMHO, it’s a really just a nice playing non-compensation three valve student instrument). For what it’s worth in my experience Brass Band Tuba players are rarely asked to play that far up the transposed treble clef stave - give those higher notes to higher pitched instruments - and the 788 was designed, developed and made to be played in Brass Bands. YMMV.

Expecting all the harmonics on a Tuba to line-up and play in-tune - and particularly so with the less expensive instruments - is almost certain to lead to disappointment, but sometimes alternate fingering can help so I suggest that route. Rather that playing the high G open (as would be normal) try the G with the first and third valves down, try first and second too; the F won’t work for me with first and third valves down and only first will do - I know of no easy fix. In my limited experience of UK made Tubas it’s not unusual for the older and more basic versions to play that high G sharp. Having a tuner to hand and turned on, just to confirm what pitches you’re playing, is quite helpful and particularly so when alternative fingering can - or might even unintentionally - be used.

The Bach 24AW is maybe not helping you, it’s a deep cup and perhaps you’re having to fight it. The miraphone C3 is a bigger cup again and deep too ( https://www.hornguys.com/products/mirap ... mouthpiece ). Beside alternate fingering I think that I’d try, well assuming that I had then, a Bach 25 (shallower and smaller backbone than a 24AW, I find then a reasonably good choice on a three valve Tuba) and a Bach 22 (similar to a 25 but a little bigger in diameter and, with good chops, I anticipate a little richer in sound). I’m doubtful about how big a cup is actually needed for a three valve Tuba; the older British style Tubas aren’t necessarily well matched to and didn’t come with big mouthpieces, and straining to get high notes on a big cup might pull the note sharp. Switching between Eb and Bb Tubas might be throwing your lip out too, folk do switch or double but I’d find it a challenge.

I’m a Brass Band Eb Bass player. One of the things that I’m working on at the moment is the extremes of range, on the high range the 7th (?) partial (treble clef C, Concert pitch Eb) was challenging and I’ve yet to play reliably higher; of course the experts can do such things and sometimes have to too, but I’m just an old guy who plays Tuba for what fun I can extract from it. Sometimes we are aided by exercises that have us playing in the higher range - for range extension one exercise I’ve taken to is selecting simple tunes and then playing them either up or (on my 4 valve Tuba) down an octave - we get a feel for what sounds right and somehow things start to become more in-tune and easier to ‘pull out of the bag’.

Good luck.

[tofu]

.

[bloke]

I think the later ones had a standard shank receiver.
Was this the sub-3/4 size instrument?

[2nd tenor]

Reading the OP again I believe that the Tuba has the modern large shank receiver.

Photos of a similar instrument can be found here: https://yorkmaster.org/yorkmaster/photo ... index.html

I’d say that folk in the USA would regard this as under 3/4 size, but what size 4/4 is/was I’m really not sure.

IIRC the bell on my old Besson Regent Eb is about 12” - just a tad bigger than a modern Euphonium - so the BBb size will likely be similar. For what it’s worth the old ‘3/4 sized’ Bessons can work really well in community type music groups - mine’s been just great and even so as the only Bass.

A modern and slightly grown version of this tuba might be the JP-078 (https://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/pr ... 78-bb-tuba), that Tuba comes with (is matched to) a small diameter and deep cup mouthpiece (JP611 https://www.johnpacker.co.uk/prod/jp611 ... thpiece-4l )

[bloke]

I was never able to remember all of those model numbers, but - if it’s that little guy with a 13 inch bell - every time I’ve repaired one of those things most any mouthpiece worked pretty well.
The bore size isn’t that small; I think it’s .689”

[Crymzon1980]

So it's been some months since i've been by, and I want to thank those who have posted. I'll be looking into more of those mouthpieces but I've also come across a Yamaha 67C4 mouthpiece that has worked pretty well for the BBb's upper range. Yeah I know BBb basses usually don't play in the higher register, but since i'm trying to work on my high register anyway, why not LOL

Didn't know there was an Eb version of the Besson 788, might have to look it up.

@tofu : to answer your q i guess it's the large shank receiver, all the wear and tear matches with the horn LOL i bought this horn used on ebay and it needs a lot of work, but with my poor mans Enginuity, it's playable for the most part.

@2nd tenor I'm definitely going to look into the Bach 25 and 22, I do feel i might want to get a slightly larger diameter mouthpiece. I'm an Eb Bass player as well, but I've been wanting to double on BBb as well, and yes it's pain sometimes when the Eb Basses get anything past that high concert Bb (treble clef) (Salvation Army Brass)

@bloke I had to tell you this one, i currently had to use hot glue to temporarily "fix" the loose weld on the bow of my BBb, if i ever get the funds to get this horn worked on, you'll be one of the guys i'd have to call LOL And yes it has the 13" bell, but even with its flaws i wanted to give it a new home, and finished paying on it a couple months ago. besides the work it needs, i need to work on getting a case/gig bag for it in case i ever get to take it out of the house.

[2nd tenor]

So it's been some months since i've been by, and I want to thank those who have posted. I'll be looking into more of those mouthpieces but I've also come across a Yamaha 67C4 mouthpiece that has worked pretty well for the BBb's upper range. Yeah I know BBb basses usually don't play in the higher register, but since i'm trying to work on my high register anyway, why not LOL

Didn't know there was an Eb version of the Besson 788, might have to look it up.

@tofu : to answer your q i guess it's the large shank receiver, all the wear and tear matches with the horn LOL i bought this horn used on ebay and it needs a lot of work, but with my poor mans Enginuity, it's playable for the most part.

@2nd tenor I'm definitely going to look into the Bach 25 and 22, I do feel i might want to get a slightly larger diameter mouthpiece. I'm an Eb Bass player as well, but I've been wanting to double on BBb as well, and yes it's pain sometimes when the Eb Basses get anything past that high concert Bb (treble clef) (Salvation Army Brass)

@bloke I had to tell you this one, i currently had to use hot glue to temporarily "fix" the loose weld on the bow of my BBb, if i ever get the funds to get this horn worked on, you'll be one of the guys i'd have to call LOL And yes it has the 13" bell, but even with its flaws i wanted to give it a new home, and finished paying on it a couple months ago. besides the work it needs, i need to work on getting a case/gig bag for it in case i ever get to take it out of the house.

Honestly, if you’re trying to extend your high range on a three valve BBb then amongst your best aids is the smallest cup mouthpiece(s) that you can get away with using (ie. still plays a reasonably good low G in transposed treble clef). Tone quality does become effected but as you go smaller in cup size the high range becomes more accessible - life if full of trade-offs some of which matter and some of which really aren’t that disturbing or costly.

If Yamaha is what you can get easily, and at a price that works for you, then their BB-65 (31mm cup) might suit. https://www.yamahamusiclondon.com/BB-65 ... pidBMPBB65 . If Bach is what you can easily get hold of then their 25 (30.6mm cup) might well suit, https://www.bachbrass.com/application/f ... 89_web.pdf . Note: “Bach Tuba mouthpieces can be used equally well on BBb and Eb Tuba”.

A pal in the Brass Band that I play in was supplied with a four valve Imperial BBb and Wick 5 mouthpiece (just a 30 mm cup), he got by in the three valve range range but struggled in the very low range that requires using the fourth valve with the other three. He now uses a Wick 2 (32mm cup), but he only needs that large size because it’s a four valve instrument … you haven’t got a four valve instrument.

Edit. YMMV, I’m only sharing my personal experience.

[Crymzon1980]

@2nd tenor Thanks for the feedback :) I do like the feel of both Bach/Yamaha mouthpieces, but I may lean towards the Bach 25, but I still want to get a yamaha 65 as well. P.S. I actually play a Yamaha yeb321s Eb (4v) at the corps so that wick 2 or something similar sounds tempting for that :D

[iiipopes]

Wick 1. Period. If you have the "American" receiver instead of the older smaller receiver, then the Wick 1L. This is the mouthpiece that was designed for this tuba. I had one when I had a New Standard BBb 3-valve comp. I went through an extensive mouthpiece safari, and this is the only mouthpiece that brought out everything the tuba had to offer. With the deep cup, it gave the sonorous, almost pipe-organ like tone that is the hallmark of a Besson BBb tuba. Even if it is not your primary mouthpiece, everybody who owns a Besson BBb tuba with the .730 bore must have one of these in reserve in case that sonority is indicated for a particular ensemble or musical selection. Remember that your Yamaha tuba was copied from the Besson.

[bloke]

I've been wrong before plenty of times, but I'm pretty sure - again - that this is the tiny little B-flat with a 13-in bell yet with a .689" medium large bore size. Probably most any mouthpiece would work, but it probably depends on what type of sound someone wants to get out of the instrument. It's going to tend to be pretty blatant when played loudly - regardless of the mouthpiece. That might be a good thing or maybe someone would wish to suppress that characteristic...??

[2nd tenor]

@2nd tenor Thanks for the feedback :) I do like the feel of both Bach/Yamaha mouthpieces, but I may lean towards the Bach 25, but I still want to get a yamaha 65 as well. P.S. I actually play a Yamaha yeb321s Eb (4v) at the corps so that wick 2 or something similar sounds tempting for that :D

With regard to the YEB321. I sometimes use a Wick 2 in the Besson Sovereign EEb that I have, it’s nice (a small fraction more tone to it and a small fraction easier speaking in the very low range than a 3) but in practise it’s unnecessarily big and particularly so if you never go below (in transposed treble clef - ttc) low F sharp (1+2+3). A Wick 3 is big enough for my EEb (a ‘Goldilocks’ piece that gives me a good voice and full chromatic range from top C to peddle A in ttc) and a 4 will get you by if you’re not playing much below that (ttc) F sharp.

If you can get hold of a Bach 25 easily then it should be just fine in your small BBb. My (small receiver) three valve Eb, a sister to what you have, sounded great with a (borrowed) Doug Yeo Bass Trombone mouthpiece (just a 28.7 mm cup).

I’m not sure whether I’ve said this before or not but - as made for their home UK market - Besson Tubas really weren’t ever intended to play high notes, expecting to play them high and in tune might simply be asking too much of the instrument. For higher pitched notes the ensemble contained Eb Basses and Euphoniums.

Well, the above is what I’ve found.

Pictures of a Besson 3/4 sized BBb Tuba https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... -496112960

[donn]

I've heard of range-related pitch issues like that, and I know some people see it as a mouthpiece issue, but ... does anyone understand why it would be the mouthpiece? That does happen with the saxophone, but there's a physical explanation (that probably doesn't apply here.)

[Mary Ann]

One thing that had occurred to me, and would be much more likely in the less-than-pro level of players (like me,) is that a lot of people will play at the top of the slots because it feels more secure. That could affect where the tuning slide is set. More likely that is going on with a flat high range than a sharp one though. The slots are so much bigger in the lower partials, that the tuning slide's position is really not that precise (on a horn you can easily bend up and down a 4th within the F pedal, but if you try to bend the third space C treble clef, you jump partials;) when you go up higher and the slots are narrower, it matters more where the tuning slide is. So I think I will try setting the tuning slide based on Bb at the top of the staff and "see what happens" with low range.

If it's a sharp high range, the same thing could be tried -- setting the tuning slide for the sharp range to be in tune, and see what happens in the low range, that is considerably more lippable. Or just get an instrument that doesn't give you so much trouble.

[donn]

That makes a certain amount of sense. I believe Bloke has suggested something similar in the past - tuning to a note in the staff rather than way below it, might turn up a playing problem posing as an equipment problem.

So the (typically) smaller mouthpieces that facilitate better intonation, would be more responsive to the lip control to put the lower register where it belongs? I wonder if it's more about the resistance or whatever we call it, which would be a factor with both the tuba and mouthpiece selection.

[iiipopes]

I've been wrong before plenty of times, but I'm pretty sure - again - that this is the tiny little B-flat with a 13-in bell yet with a .689" medium large bore size. Probably most any mouthpiece would work, but it probably depends on what type of sound someone wants to get out of the instrument. It's going to tend to be pretty blatant when played loudly - regardless of the mouthpiece. That might be a good thing or maybe someone would wish to suppress that characteristic...??

If so, then that is even more reason to have the Wick 1. Three similar experiences: one year in community band many years ago a person had a King 3/4. He sounded thin and grainy. He was playing a Bach 18. He asked how to get a better tone. I recommended a Conn 120S Helleberg. He bought one and at next rehearsal actually had good fundamental to his tone. He was so happy with the recommendation he gave me the 18, which I played on souzy until I got my custom mouthpiece from Jim New. A few years later, I played next to a friend of mine with a Conn 12J. He sounded blatty with the Bach 18. I encouraged him to try the Conn Helleberg 120S that he already had. His tone was immediately broader, less blatty, and had more fundamental. Finally, in a music store, a teacher friend of mine had his Reynolds and sounded thin on his bowl mouthpiece. I asked what they had behind the counter. They had a Schilke HII used. I demonstrated both so he could hear the difference, and my friend the teacher (primarily a trombone player) was astonished at the difference it made.

Therefore, my recommendation stands.

[bloke]

I just don't make one-and-only recommendations for any mouthpiece for any instrument/person (as I've changed things around myself - in several ways - fairly recently), and also try - fairly diligently - to avoid hawking, which would auto-degrade the sincerity of any advice I might offer.

Anyway...This person identifies their tuba as "Besson", but I'm fairly certain that it's not a .730" bore instrument with a 17" - 19" bell diameter.

[Crymzon1980]

I've been wrong before plenty of times, but I'm pretty sure - again - that this is the tiny little B-flat with a 13-in bell yet with a .689" medium large bore size. Probably most any mouthpiece would work, but it probably depends on what type of sound someone wants to get out of the instrument. It's going to tend to be pretty blatant when played loudly - regardless of the mouthpiece. That might be a good thing or maybe someone would wish to suppress that characteristic...??

I was curious about the bore size so i measured the bore size of the 2nd valve: 0.689(5)"

Welp, I'll be on the hunt for some new mouthpieces then (one at a time, i guess lol) Thanks everyone who's given their input!

[bloke]

I've been wrong before plenty of times, but I'm pretty sure - again - that this is the tiny little B-flat with a 13-in bell yet with a .689" medium large bore size. Probably most any mouthpiece would work, but it probably depends on what type of sound someone wants to get out of the instrument. It's going to tend to be pretty blatant when played loudly - regardless of the mouthpiece. That might be a good thing or maybe someone would wish to suppress that characteristic...??

I was curious about the bore size so i measured the bore size of the 2nd valve: 0.689(5)"

Welp, I'll be on the hunt for some new mouthpieces then (one at a time, i guess lol) Thanks everyone who's given their input!

exactly right...
a very small tuba with a medium-large bore size