497-B Miraphone

[pjv]

This week I became the happy owner (and then REALLY happy) of a used 497-B.
I owned a 496 for a couple of years but really missed the refinement which tends to be reserved (in the BBb world) only for 6/4.
I picked up the horn, played two notes, and knew immediately that this horn was going home with me.
It just played easier on all notes, in all registers than the 496. Refinement.
This instrument has some nice extra's:
-it has a 5th valve!
-the valves are all vented (except the 5th. Why??? Gotta get that taken care of)
-all the valve slides and the mts are red brass. No red rot. (leadpipe is nickel).
-yeah, and the anti-slip leather thingy is a nice touch.

Only "downside" is that it's not lacquered. Can't have everything.

Now I don't play in the orchestra scene so I've just written to Miraphone and asked what the delivery time and cost would be for a longer mts (A=440) in red brass.
It makes me wonder; instead of ordering a bit longer mts (same sleeves, longer conical section) what would the effect be if I just had someone lengthen the sleeves on this mts? In other words extending the cylindrical section.
Has anyone ever tried this before?

[bloke]

I believe I would just do the tuning slide thing, but of course it's all your choice.

If it's like the 98, you would be moving the positions of a bunch of other attaching places to lengthen the mouthpipe insertion appliance.

Miraphone is darn accurate, but I believe I would do my very best to give them calipers measured spacing of your tuning slide, rather than just asking for a longer one, and assuming that it would slide right on.

Congratulations !

[pjv]

Thanks for the advice

[edfirth]

Why can't you just put longer tubes on the main tuning slide so that when it's in it's out a little? I've gone that route in the past with good results. And it's not very costly And you'd still have the original tubes if you(or someone else) wants to put it back the way it was. Good luck, Ed Actually, Sorry, I just reread your original post and I agree with that solution.

[bloke]

That's the cheapest way to go for the >> parts <<, but those ferrules on those Miraphone slides fit those slide tubes very very snugly, and they are not going to just slide right apart after some heat is applied. By the time those tubes are out, the entire slide could well (likely) be apart into its six pieces, and hopefully with none of them warped or marked up.

Different repair shops and different repair people charge different rates, but it could possibly be an hour before those shorter inside slide tubes - or combination inside/outside slide tubes - are off, and the remaining parts are ready to accept longer pieces of tubing. If it's an inside/outside setup like the Model 98, it's more complicated than just putting on longer tubes. There are a couple of other factors that - if not considered - will define a screw up.

My model 98 had the opposite problem and needed the main slide shortened. I reused parts, because (duh) I don't charge myself labor. With a longer slide, I'm pretty sure that the tube coming out of the last rotor is going to be an inside slide tube, so that (replacement/longer) tube is going to have to be soldered to the last rotor, along with the slide assembly itself being rebuilt longer. Otherwise, if Miraphone sends a replacement ready-to-go built main slide assembly exactly to measurements along with that longer inside slide tube which solders to the instrument, that's the only solder joint that would need to be affected, and the labor would be considerably lower in time - likely - probably cost.

I'm not trying to disagree, I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I'm not trying to exaggerate. I run into this (tight fitting tubes) with Miraphone. There's no slop in their fit, and once put together they are not easy to get apart, and certainly not with solder added.

[pjv]

Thanks again for that Bloke

[bloke]

FAR too many words...(I sincerely apologize...SINCERELY)

Here's the thing:

If they send you a longer slide (spaced precisely according to your careful measurements)...

What it they charged you $250...and you could (simply) take it out of the box, slide it on, and play at A=440... ??

WHEREAS...
If Miraphone only sent you some longer tubes (and it's complicated, because - I'm guessing - it's an inside/outside type of set-up like a model 98, PLUS taking a Miraphone slide apart is DIFFICULT because tubes/ferrules fit TIGHT) you could easily owe Miraphone $75, and then have to pay a repair-guy another $250 (for struggling getting the slide apart, carefully measuring for the required inside-fit geometry, etc., etc...)

Also, if you just tell Miraphone to "tripoli-buff" the slide (not shiny, but just enough to clean up the solder joints) they may knock something off the price, because buffing/cleaning/lacquering takes even more time.

there: a MUCH shorter answer (and SORRY for the too-long one)

finally:
How about measuring your small-end bell circumference (where it enters the bottom bow connecting ferrule) and the overall (exposed portion) bell height?
I'd like to know if the model 497 uses the same bell as the model 98 (which seems to be very similarly profiled to the Holton 345 bells).

[LargeTuba]

That is a VERY pretty looking tuba! You might not like it, but I totally dig the raw brass.

Congrats on the purchase!

[bloke]

yeah...for sure...
They're a lot more handsome than a (same size/same maker) 98, which - well... - is pretty funny-lookin'.

I just checked your pic against a stock pic...sure enough: kranz-less

[LeMark]

every time I try to unsolder ferrules from something, only one side comes unsoldered, and it's usually not the side I was hoping for.

[bloke]

every time I try to unsolder ferrules from something, only one side comes unsoldered, and it's usually not the side I was hoping for.

With Miraphone slides, often the bows (though they're tight as well) come out much sooner than the (inside) slide tubes some off of the connecting ferrules...and I have to wear welding gloves, because I have to heat-and-heat-and-heat and jiggle-and-jiggle-and-jiggle (AND JIGGLE) Miraphone slides to them them to come apart into their components.

I understand why:
When stuff fits that tightly, it's not likely to move around when an employee-craftsman is soldering them together.

[pjv]

Ok
Considering that Miraphone is only an eight hour drive from where I live, I think I’ll try making an appointment with them.
And I’ll let them vent the 5th valve as well.
Thanks Bloke for your good word

[bloke]

Ok
Considering that Miraphone is only an eight hour drive from where I live, I think I’ll try making an appointment with them.
And I’ll let them vent the 5th valve as well.
Thanks Bloke for your good word

Wow. That certainly what I would do, and - as you would make an appointment - they could have all of the pieces cut out and ready to solder together. Since your instrument has no finish, they can actually assemble the slide on your instrument, using your instrument as an assembly jig.

Once once the new slide is soldered together, it will only take someone about ten minutes (no finish) to tripoli-buff the solder joints, install a water key, and send you on your way home with a grin and a handshake.

If your O.E.M. slide works butter-smooth, then I guess they don't need to check its alignment, but - if not - they could align that slide (both the instrument tubes and the moving tuning slide tubes) PRIOR TO building you a new longer slide. You just might need that really short slide (??), if you are asked to play in a quintet or something graveside between November and March, yes?

497:
I've played one (one time), and thought that I liked the 98 a bit better. The room was noisy. I would love to compare them again sometime. I'd be willing to be shown that I chose wrong (though both are great). I'm sure that I like both of them better than the model that seems (??) so popular in Europe, which is apparently the Melton 195.

[pjv]

Both tuba's share a lot of the same parts, so I think we're really comparing a chocolate almond ice cream with chocolate hazelnut.
And as you well know the reason you liked the 98 better might just have to do with that particular 98 being a better tuba than the 497 you tried. I tried two 98's at Miraphone and, seriously, one was a winner and the other one was a "move along, nothing to see here".
Pity.

I believe Miraphone said that the main difference was in the mouthpipe but some also some other things I can't remember. Obviously the third and fourth wraps are different, but this would seems to me like a smaller detail. I believe the bells are also the same but the 98 flairs out more.
I'll send you the bell measurements soon.

[bloke]

Both tuba's share a lot of the same parts, so I think we're really comparing a chocolate almond ice cream with chocolate hazelnut.
And as you well know the reason you liked the 98 better might just have to do with that particular 98 being a better tuba than the 497 you tried. I tried two 98's at Miraphone and, seriously, one was a winner and the other one was a "move along, nothing to see here".
Pity.

I believe Miraphone said that the main difference was in the mouthpipe but some also some other things I can't remember. Obviously the third and fourth wraps are different, but this would seems to me like a smaller detail. I believe the bells are also the same but the 98 flairs out more.
I'll send you the bell measurements soon.

yeah...I'm absolutely sure I would REALLY like "a" 497.
The original retail seller of my 98 (though they've only sold two or three to date...probably more than most any other retailer anywhere...??) told me that the one I ended up with was the best one they had sold...They remembered it well.
Sticking the 4th circuit off to the side (again) certainly makes the 98 goofy-lookin' (compared to the beautiful 497), but it ends up being skinnier - front-to-back (as with the skinny front-to-back short B-flat Holton I "built" (whereby I put the 4th circuit in the same place with nearly precisely the same config.)

[pjv]

Aren’t really all tubas goofy looking?

[bloke]

anyway...
I'm excited for you.

[cjk]

Ok
Considering that Miraphone is only an eight hour drive from where I live, I think I’ll try making an appointment with them.
And I’ll let them vent the 5th valve as well.
Thanks Bloke for your good word

You might wish to spend a bunch of time with a tuner (if you already haven't) and see if any of the other tuning slides would benefit from being longer or shorter. While you are there, you might as well have them take care of everything it might need.

[pjv]

Point taken thanks.
And yes the tuner is often a part of my practicing.

[bloke]

Point taken thanks.
And yes the tuner is often a part of my practicing.

As everyone (along with everyone's cousins, aunts, uncles, and inlaws) knows by now, I
- shortened #1
- lengthened #3
- lengthened #5
- shortened the main slide
- lengthened the #4 lower slide bow (so-as it's middle-of-three #4 slides wouldn't require such a pull)

on a "sister" model.