Same weird thing happening over and over

[bloke]

There's an assistant band director at a school that's about an hour away from me who - seemingly - regularly tells me that this or that instrument plays flat. I show up at the school and test the instrument in question, and - if anything - the instrument that I will play is sharp, and then I hand it back to the kid who regularly plays it, they play it sharp, and then we pull the tuning slide out a bit (since they had the slide pushed all the way in, due to believing the instrument played flat) and the kid plays it in tune.

Today, it was a kid with both upper and lower braces who had parents and grandparents who played the tuba. One could blame stuff on braces or slow air for the fact that it was the only 20K versus a bunch of Kings and Jupiter's or all kinds of stuff, but - after they heard me play the instrument sharp - and then in tune - they did too.

Again, this has happened over and over again with the same assistant band director at the same school. I'm not trying to make a point. I'm just trying to tell you guys about something weird that's going on over a period of months and years.

[Snake Charmer]

When they call the next time: If you tell them frankly that their hearing (or understanding what they've heard) is in trouble it may be taken as an insult. So better explain that the climate change has an effect on the main tuning slides so they work in the opposite direction

[Tubeast]

Maybe you can try the following:
in our world, there is an institution called a "mission report", a protocol in which our mechanics conserve the whereabouts of their visits to broke-down excavators.

- arrival-, break- and departure times
- Description of the machine´s "symptoms" as initially stated by customer to our service dispatcher at the mechanic´s "home base"
- Observations to these symptoms that customer´s local personnel might have.
- Status quo of machine as assessed by our personnel
- Measures taken to adress problem (i.e. readjustments, change of spare parts, if necessary: advice on proper / improved handling of machine)...
- Status quo of machine as mechanic leaves the jobsite

That report is signed by the mechanic as well as the customer.
It will ONLY contain factual information of who, what, when, where. Absolutely NO judgmental comments.
But occasionally it might read interesting stuff ...

So in your case, such a report might contain a comparison of desired vs. found frequencies and measures taken for correction.

Except, of course, if you don´t mind adressing these cases at all: sounds like money easily earned...

[Mary Ann]

Seems like your band director has many clones in mechanic shops here, who all like to say "bring it in so we can tell you what's REALLY wrong with it."

[Ace]

Band director with a bad ear? Impossible

[bloke]

He's a good musician (player - sax/trumpet) and a good listener.
---------------------------------------------
Here's a brand-new one from him...and this was yesterday (I just looked through the instruments I picked up for repair).
I was handed an old Blessing marching baritone (a minor bell crease and a loose receiver brace), but the main complaint from the band director is "plays flat and stuffy".

OK...It's not stuffy...It just has a small shank receiver and mouthpiece. (bloke adage: "Give it what it needs.")

FLAT:
I HAVE to believe that they are sticking stuff like bonafide "EUPHONIUM" mouthpieces into their marching BARITONES...so I sent this note:
(I'm NOT including the attached pictures, which are referenced in the email.)

======================================================================

t will play up to pitch with a mouthpiece (smaller) - such as a Bach 12C, but I'm guessing that you prefer your students to play with larger mouthpieces.

Marching baritones are more like an English brass band baritone (in overall size) than an American "baritone horn" or an English brass band euphonium (now: widely adopted by American wind bands).

English brass band baritones are designed to sound noticeably different from euphoniums.

Just in my opinion, I judge marching baritones (again: the size of English baritones) to be good for outdoors as their sound is much less "round" (more overtones in the sound) and - thus - carries more with neither a shell or a ceiling...but whatever.

I WILL shorten the Blessing instrument by about 1-1/2 inches overall, so as to offer a bit of a pull with a mouthpiece larger than a 12C...such as a 6-1/2AL (etc.)

Really larger mouthpieces - deeper than 6-1/2AL (such as Schilke 51D, and deeper actual "euphonium" mouthpieces) could still end up playing this (or another) marching baritone nearly-or-actually flat (depending on how much tuning range is built into the main slide, and how sharp the main slide might allow a marching baritone to play (with a more suitable mouthpiece - which is not so deep).

summary:
The Blessing marching baritone is obviously set up to play a bit sharp (yep) down to flat with a NOT LARGE mouthpiece (such as a 12C, etc.), but I WILL shorten it, so that it's easier to play it up to pitch with a MEDIUM-deep (such as 6-1/2AL) mouthpiece. Something REALLY deep (such as a bonafide "euphonium" mouthpiece) could still cause "flatness" problems.

pictures attached:
The silver instruments are an English baritone (much the same size/taper as a marching baritone) next to an English (and American-adopted) euphonium.

The lacquer instrument picture: you know very well as an old-style American baritone horn - which is in-between the other two.

I KNOW that YOU know all of this, but the thing I'm pointing out is that the "marching baritones" are actually the size of English baritones, and it's challenging to play some-or-many of them (depending on "how far in" A-440 is designed to be - on various makes' main slides) up to pitch with deep-cup "euphonium" mouthpieces. They (marching baritones) can also tend to play somewhat out-of-tune with themselves, when the mouthpiece is too large (such as a mouthpiece actually intended for a big euphonium).
(analogy: An alto sax can be played with a tenor mouthpiece, and a tenor sax can be played with a bari mouthpiece...but the results won't be optimal.)

Shallow vs. deep cup mouthpieces used on TUBAS:
Since tubas are twice as long (and the cup depth differences are a much smaller portion of the length of those instruments), cup depth - with TUBA mouthpieces - has MUCH LESS of an effect, yet there still is a minor effect.

[Three Valves]

Except, of course, if you don´t mind adressing these cases at all: sounds like money easily earned...

I never got tired got of going on site to plug in peoples stuff.

[bloke]

Since doing this only involves three solder joints, I'm going to (see picture) take this piece off, shorten it as indicated, and reinstall it.

[Rick Denney]

I might have said that the marching baritone is the analog to a jazz-size tenor trombone, and uses a similar mouthpiece, whereas a euphonium or traditional American upright baritone aligns more closely with a bass trombone which can survive the use of a larger mouthpiece without playing out of tune.

Rick "and then buy him a tuner" Denney

[Mary Ann]

I guess that was a really politically good way of telling him that he is using the wrong mouthpieces for the instruments, and then blaming the instruments for the problems caused. Maybe he will figure that out, and maybe not.

[bloke]

They sent me a very cordial and reply today, and thanked me for spending the time to explain all of that. I believe the saxophone mouthpiece analogy rang true. It was really nice and it was completely genuine.

The Brazil-made marching baritones - that so many people purchased from DEG - were not gems, but they understood the problems that people encounter:
- wide-ranging mouthpiece cup depths combined with
- summer band camp temperatures upwards of 120° in the sun down to night-time winter performance temperatures as low as perhaps 20°.. and the early ones of those Dynasty marching baritones were supplied with two tuning slides.

The short side of a whole bunch of brands of marching baritone main tuning slides isn't much more than a couple of inches, and when you are putting everything in them from a 12C to a 52e2 - and in a 100° environmental temperature range, 2 inches of pull and push (even though it's actually 4 inches) may not be enough of a difference - even though the instrument is only about 9 to 13 ft long...

... and if (??) four inches is enough of a length change, the range has to be carefully calculated - so that the hot and shallow mouthpiece sharpness and the cold and deep mouthpiece situations land just barely at either end of that range of tuning...

...and keep in mind that so many of these bands these days using electronic bass, whereby the tuning doesn't change regardless of the temperature or anything.

bloke "just barely smart enough to not be completely stupid"