vintage bass trombone timbre/sonority

[bloke]

Most new bass trombones sound bland/foghorn-like (like 6/4 C tubas...thus: the ideal pairing), but I'm pretending as if those none of those exist - because they all suck.

If you play in an orchestra (and are too dumb to back up an extra eighteen inches or so...or your stand is necessarily off the riser, and - if you back up - you can't read the instructions on the paper), you've heard plenty of bass trombones in your right ear, over the years.

Most of the sound is the player, but what about the rest of it?

me...??

I tend to prefer (obviously, with a fine/musical operator) old Conn bass trombones (and either the slightly smaller-belled 7XH's or the slightly fatter-belled 6XH's) over all other makes.
I'm aware that some of the bolt-together Lego-like makers tell their potential clients "We designed this "set-up" ("set-up"...really...?? ) to sound like Bach/Conn/Holton/etc.", but - to me - all those either sound like Getswards or Sheashmires (remembering back when Holton was it's own company, and - when they tried making Geyer-like or Conn-like French horns, they all sounded like...Holton. )

so...DO YOU have a PREFERENCE as to a bass trombone make - regarding the type of sounds various classic American makes tend to produce?

[Kevbach33]

This is tough to answer as a tuba/bass trombone player that doesn't play in an orchestra (nor do I play bass bone in concert band...). Also, my lack of experience really shows with this post...

As a tuba player, this season is the first time in my life I have a true bass trombone player sitting next to me in concert band. He plays a Getzen 3062AF (dual bore slide/"gimmick" valves) with the #3 (most open) leadpipe and a Giddings Nor'Easter (one of their biggest). Although he gets a clear sound out of it, it's very much like a foghorn. I myself play a B&S 103 with a Laskey 30G to get clarity out of my tuba. Because we're on time and in tune with each other, the sound is solid, but his sound adds a bit too much lower overtones to the sound for a concert band. Even my own Getzen 1052FD (single bore/Indy rotors, and I use the #1 [tightest] pipe with a Pickett 1.5S [about like a Bach 1¼G]) would be better. (But I can't duplicate myself...)Then again, the other trombones are on large bore horns for the most part (and one plays a Yamaha 322 bass on tenor parts!).

Every other time there was a bass trombone player in a concert band I was a part of, it was myself back in high school. I used a Holton TR-181 with a Schilke 60 (yikes). I don't recall how well the tuba and I blended because the bass trombone and tuba parts in Pictures At an Exhibition are, for the most part, quite different except the first promenade, yes?

Over time, as I focused more on big band work for bass bone, I really came to appreciate the leaner sound of the (Abilene) Conn 71H my school also had, and wished I had played that in concert band (for Pictures). So my vote will go Conn 7xH simply because I don't know what the 62H sounds like.

(Bach 50, I think, would be best for orchestra, and King Duo Gravis and 7B are mainly for big band. I also thought the Holton leaned more towards a big band type sound.)

[tofu]

.

[bloke]

re: your brother
I'm thinking that a bass trombonist needs to produce a particularly pure/whatever-it-takes buzz to sound really nice on those.
Good for him.
================================================
I've been remarkably lucky re: bass trombonists.
I have a friend (all of my bass trombone buddies are REALLY GOOD buddies, for whatever reason...) who has been through several bass 'bones, but recently went back (to his college bass trombone) which is a solid coin silver King Duo Gravis. His last instrument was a Sh... He did very well with it, but always appeared as if he was working hard enough to dig a ditch...I felt bad when watching, so I tended to look straight forward (as we are supposed to do anyway). He's having a much easier time with the old King, and his principal (yes) loves it.

I have another friend (a superb tenor/alto trombonist) who was "tossed into" a (per service) bass trombone position. He bought an "emergency" JP/Rath single rotor show demo from me (which does not suck)...That's him - and that JP/Rath - on that nutty (meant as a joke) Borodin brief excerpt on my youtube "channel"...21 - count 'em - 21,000 views...which demonstrates where tuba/bass trombone players' heads are ). After that, he picked up a rare MIRAFONE (yes, really) 1970's copy of a Conn 72H. That's the one that (Repairs forum) it did a HURRIED - had to... - conversion to two-rotor inline...There wasn't much room for a gooseneck (based on length of the tuning slide, bell, playing slide, etc.)...only about an INCH .
Later, he picked up a "real" (Elkhart) 72H, which I also brought back from the dead for him. I'm trying to talk him into selling ALL of those (though none of them suck) and seeing if he can find a unicorn original condition Minick 62H. This guy - being mostly an tenor/alto player, and not really knowing much about the bass excerpts; astonishingly, he (while learning on-the-fly) accepted whispered hints from me (and - when in that era - actually told me that he appreciated that - rather than telling me to go BELOW Hell... )...stuff like (Waltz of the Flowers) "ignore the super-soft dynamic, make that yours, and copy the basses' sound" or (Puccini opera excerpts) nothing more specific whispered other than, "hey man...that's YOU!" - after which he played it absolutely "like the record"...etc.
My first bass trombone friend was an Eastman/Remington student. Sadly, he moved away decades ago (higher-paying/more-prestigious gigs in academia), and - in my teen years (with him around thirty or so) introduced me to the "Conn" sound. He owned a 73H (smaller bell/2-rotor/dependent) and later acquired an original (on which the later ones were based, and also a unicorn) single rotor 70H. By that time, I was doing reasonably good repair work (still: in my 20's), and converted the clockspring/string/leather saddle thing to a 72H/88H/etc. type of bar - which also required reversing the cork plate. It's HIS sound (and HIS Conn bass trombones) that I hear in my head.
...There are also a couple of fine "young" men (eek...they both have daughters and sons in college, now) who picked up bass trombone in college, started being hired for jobs, "sort of" knew where the pitches were - but were difficult with which to achieve "iron octaves", but who have BOTH matured into wonderful bass trombonists (though both play one of those boutique makes). I also have spent considerable time working with John Rojak (Bach-dependent - then Rath-dependent), and (not the Montreal Beaudry) but Chris Beaudry - who is a sweetheart of a man, an Eastman alum, played an E.... for years, saw the light and (yup) found himself a mint-condition Minnick/Elkhart 62H...so now, he not only plays like an angel, but also sounds like one. Another is Scott Cochran (Richmond) who formerly played (I believe) one of those Wis. things, and (as with my Remington disciple friend) found an original 70H... Scott's playing - along with John's - is up there with the gods...
me: (again) lucky

I voted for the Bach.

My older brother was a fine trombone player and back in HS was studying with Marty Fako of the Chicago Lyric Opera. I think he was principal then (his wife played the French Horn in the CSO). They still live in the same house all these years later a couple doors down from my sister. My brother bought Marty’s Bach bass trombone in 1970 if I recall when he was a junior in HS. I don’t remember which bell it had. It was probably from the early 1960’s.

That thing was an awesome horn with a lovely sound. Just out of college he toured for a couple years with a name rock band, but pretty much just used his King 2B. So I taught myself to play bass trombone & played that Bach for doubling gigs back in HS and College. He also had a nice Conn 88H my folks bought him in 1968. He still has the 2B and 88H, but just after I got out of college unbeknownst to me he sold that Bach bass bone for $275 as he didn’t think he really had a need for it at that time and was getting married. He thought he made a killing as he had paid Marty like $175 for it. If I had known I would have bought it from him. I’ve played next to some fine bass trombone players, but yikes I’ve played next to way too many that for lack of better words - had a scorched earth perspective to their playing.

[bort2.0]

I'll say what the bass trombone players probably say about us...

[shrug] No idea what they had.

[bloke]

I'll say what the bass trombone players probably say about us...

[shrug] No idea what they had.

maybe...
I know what all my buddies (in the various sections) use (though I've worked on several of them), and it's hard to not notice FatBastard...
...one of my principal trombone buddies (IU student in the 70's, I suppose with Beversdorf...??) actually went with Mrs. bloke and me (semi-significant road trip) to check it out...

...I needed their ears.

[matt g]

Since this is a poll and not a ranked voting system…

I chose the 62H. Having also heard a Minick 62H, it is *the* bass trombone sound. And it seems to work in any situation.

There’s a lot of other great options in those olden times.

My ranked list:

1. Conn 6xH
2. King 6B
3. King 7B
4. Conn 7xH
5. Yamaha YBL-612 (non-“R”)*
6. Benge 190
7. King 8B
8. Bach 50…

*I owned a 612 with the yellow brass bell. Sounded great, so much so that a tuba player (me) got complements from Joe Barati (google him) while playing it.

Even in the 90s it was tough to find vintage King and Conn basses, as players were hesitant to let them go even while trying and buying the massive Thayer-valved things coming on the market.

I’ve only run across one person that plays the Doug Yeo Yamaha bass. He sounded fantastic on it in rehearsals and concerts, but of course, the player was Doug Yeo. Nonetheless, I think that bass is based on older designs as he played a Conn of some sorts in his youth, iirc.

[jonesbrass]

Has to be a tie for me . . . Conn Fuchs Model / Bach 50B3.

[rodgeman]

When I played bass trombone I had a Bach 50b3 and a Holton TR-181. I enjoyed the versatility with the Holton in switching from G to Gb for my second trigger I loved the sound of the Bach. If I didn't have an elbow injury I would have kept it. However I am very happy playing tuba.

[bloke]

I'm typically the ergonomics-schergonomics guy...but (yeah...they sound OK, but) those Holton 181 trombones are really heavy (ie. front-heavy).

I put together a nice bass trombone ($0.00) by restoring a Yamaha 322 bell section and adapting it to fit a duo-bore tuning-in-slide heavy-wall F.E. Olds playing slide...and that (nice-playing) frankenbass isn't as front-heavy as a Holton 181.

[Bob Kolada]

If I were still playing I'd probably try to get a 6B or even a 5BF as a counterpart to my Getzen 1062. I owned a Benge 190F for a while that was a blast, it was just too narrow for my fat head. I've never played a vintage bass other than one Bach (silver, 10.5" bell, Bb/F/E) so I have no other context.

[DandyZ629]

I want trombones to sound like trombones. Not slide euphoniums. .

[bone-a-phone]

I wanted to see an option for generally undersized horns, or tweeners. Like Holton 159, King 1480, Olds P24G or Conn 88hK bell/547/562 dual bore. I have a Kanstul 1662, which has "standard" bass bone specs, but to me sounds like a slide foghorn. In the groups where I play, they prefer that sound over anything else I might bring in. I've had one of those Olds S-20s, a King 6b, a Wessex tweener experiment, and of course an 88h with a 2G.

The problem is we all like the wide spread tuba sound on the bottom, but all we can find are bass trombone players, so we wind up with these slide-euphonium things that don't (to me) feel good to play as a trombone, and don't really satisfy that fog-of-sound itch that people get sometimes.

To me the 73h/72h is too hard to control. The 62h is the proper horn for bass bone. Holton 180/169 might also have been an acceptable response. Real 62h or real good repros are crazy expensive, and the people who get them have this tendency to tear them down for parts and put thayers, open wraps, super wide slides, and other ridiculous parts on them. I don't think some of the people who buy them really want a 62h, they just want something trendy with the notoriety of a 62h. They change the valves (too small and too dependent) levers (both operated by one finger) slide (too narrow and small bore)... and that's it. People don't really like 62h. Except the sound. And then they go and change everything about it that makes that sound.

Bass bone is used entirely too much. Face it. Most "bass" parts are really just 3-4th bone parts and can be played (and sound best) on a big tenor with a 2G. I think at the bottom of each ensemble should be a BAT with a slightly oversized tenor with two valves. A mean little dog and his big brother. A big round sound with a sharp bite on it.

The bass bone as we know it as a real production instrument goes back to the 1960s with some rare earlier examples. The 62h is the one that was designed with all the wrong parts but the right sound.

[bloke]

I'm wandering off topic a little bit because of the previous post, and I'm commenting based on one little remark in the previous post.

My easiest blend playing the tuba with trombones is F tuba. As I have endlessly posted over the years, my F tuba plays itself, isn't stinky like most of them, and l'm lucky to consistently work (all over the place, around here) with really fine trombonists, so there are some differences possibly between me and some others (crazy good instrument and crazy good trombonists).

I believe that a lot of people like the big fat tubas when they are not necessary because the sound is more vague and intonation discrepancies don't show up as quickly.
(' triggered yet?)

I use a big fat tuba for music with "depth charges" (ex: most anything John Williams) and where it's obvious that so-called deep bass sound is needed. I also strived to get myself a really nice one that plays in tune easily.

If I didn't have the particular F tuba (and not just the particular model) that I own, I probably wouldn't ever play F tuba. I've mentioned in one or two other threads that I'm playing this odd chamber orchestra arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue, this weekend...The brass are only one trumpet, one horn, one trombone, one tuba. We are sitting in a row of four in the center of the back. At first, I tried my big fat tuba because some of the oompah sousaphone passages are still in the arrangement, but - for the second rehearsal - I grabbed the F tuba and everyone (other bones siiting out in the seats) - who noticed a different tuba, and listened - came up to me and told me how much better it was. It was effortless to blend with the trombone, and - them being a fine trombone player - our octaves/unisons were iron, and our other intervals (3rds/5ths/6ths) were harmonically perfect.

With the big tuba - were all that were still true (which I believe it was, in the previous rehearsal), I believe it would be hard to tell.