Thinking of going all Eb--want to buy or trade

[scottw]

I play an Eb from 1865 in a Civil War-era band and BBb in everything else. I am really thinking of going all Eb, for 1.- avoiding brain farts and for 2.- reducing the weight and ergonomics of a 4/4 BBb. I have a really nice Mirafone 186-4-U from 1971 that plays very well [as do all of 'em from that era]. There is some cosmetic wear as expected, but otherwise in really nice shape with a nickel silver Mirafone lead pipe that was replaced when I got the horn 20 years ago. I added 2 spit keys on the 4th valve branches to avoid the spin and they work well.
If someone wanted to trade a good, full-size-but-not-overly-large 4-valve Eb for it, I would seriously consider it. Rotary valve is preferred.
scottw

[tylerferris1213]

PM sent!

[arpthark]

I have a Boosey & Hawkes Eb 4v compensator. Located up the road from you in CT.

[tylerferris1213]

I have a Boosey & Hawkes Eb 4v compensator. Located up the road from you in CT.

Ha! I actually offered a Boosey as well.

[bloke]

Avoiding vocabulary such as "possibly" "perhaps" and other equivocation words...

The best E-flat tubas are the best of the 3+1 compensating models, tend to be heavy, the general purpose ones feature large 19-inch bells, and they are top-action.

If you're determined to play a single tuba - and are forsaking B-flat for E-flat, you might <(OK: an equivocating word) list all the things you gain/loose, and how many things (on the best E-flats) are better than those same things on the best B-flats.

[scottw]

Avoiding vocabulary such as "possibly" "perhaps" and other equivocation words...

The best E-flat tubas are the best of the 3+1 compensating models, tend to be heavy, the general purpose ones feature large 19-inch bells, and they are top-action.

If you're determined to play a single tuba - and are forsaking B-flat for E-flat, you might <(OK: an equivocating word) list all the things you gain/loose, and how many things (on the best E-flats) are better than those same things on the best B-flats.

Fair enough. My primary reason for going all Eb is to have only one set of fingerings in my aging head [and fingers]. I am happy with my 1971 Mirafone 186-4U, 4-valve BBb, but that single set of fingerings is very enticing. I want [ie, my back wants] the weight to remain around that 15lb of the Mirafone; I want something that is ergonomic; something that I don't have to wrestle into tuning submission [the Mirafone requires only minimal pull of 1st valve for a couple notes]; bell upright; big enough sound for a concert band, yet agile enough for chamber stuff; 4 rotary valves [front action preferred] in good condition. I would much prefer trading my BBb for said Eb, but that doesn't always work for others. I would love to have a decent bag with whatever i get, but that is optional. My BBb has a pretty good Wessex bag. Finally, I would hate to have to ship the horn, but if necessary, I will. I expect that is a realistic wishlist, based solely on where I am in life and my needs going forward. I am not going to be playing forever; I can still contribute, but I will not spend a lot of money to make this happen. My present horn should fetch $3500.--$4000. It's in good condition, some cosmetic issues [lacquer], it has a Mirafone nickel silver leadpipe I had installed about 20 years ago. The valves all work freely, don't leak. The S=rotors are a little noisy but not enough to worry about. The horn has been well maintained for the 23 years I've had it and hand-carried everywhere, not thrown into a truck. If necessary, I will play it the rest of my time I have left, but I'd really like a comparable Eb to simplify my life.
scottw

[bloke]

just brainstorming (no offered answers for you)...the issues of "weight" & "fingering familiarity"

Another nicely in-tune E-flat is (sadly) also a heavy one: The (non-compensating) 5-valve Willson E-flat.
Some claim that it sounds "bland"...whatever...

...Then there's the 5-valve (rotary) Miraphone "Star" (excellent E-flat tuba)...not heavy but neither is it (as their other popular E-flat model is designated) "-light".

In order to be fully chromatic in the - these days - full written range of tuba music (and - also - to be a really good instrument - as "that'll do" instruments aren't all that much fun) they all (regardless of length of the bugle) tend to be somewhat heavy. My sheet-brass F tuba weighs about 17-1/2 lbs...(which is not all that light, because it has six valves - which make it more useful)...so - in a high-grade bag (not even discussing that I've moved over to hard cases) - I'm carrying around 26 lbs.

Your other stated issue is "one set of fingerings".
Are you - at this point - more familiar with E-flat than B-flat...and (if E-flat) more familiar with compensating, or more familiar with non-compensating?

Older sheet-brass 186 B-flat tubas (yours, yes?) are not-particularly heavy, offer a reasonably broad sound, and (with "double-low" E-flat requiring a bit of finagling) reasonably finagling-free scale down to "double-low" D.

For carrying from car to venue...
Most pretty-good bags weigh around 8 lbs. (someone correct me, if I'm off by a lot for the "average").
One strategy could be to leave the bag in the car and carry the instrument up on your shoulder (as quite a few players did in the old "pre-bag" days).
Another could be to pull up to the door/stage/stage door of the venue, carry the instrument the short distance into the venue, park the car, and walk to the venue from your parking place (unencumbered by the heavy instrument)...I do this fairly often...most of the time, in fact, when there's not stage door parking or next-to-venue parking for musicians. This is particularly helpful to me (as I am not ready - at this point...maybe later...?? - to relieve myself of all but one instrument, and often use a couple of them at engagements).

When I'm doing really major repairs, the entire (no valve section attached) "bugles-with-bell" of most all tubas (regardless of size/length) don't really weigh all that much.
When adding three valves to them, they weigh considerably more. When adding a (nearly as long as the other three put together) 4th valve to a tuba, it becomes CONSIDERABLY heavier yet...and then a 5th...or even a 6th...(All valve sections - along with even more valves - weigh a LOT.)

I understand/sympathize with the "aging head" thing.
I've recently (as I've incessantly over-discussed on this site) moving to B-flat (after several decades of playing C instruments).
I played B-flat instruments up through age 17 (and - at that time - really wasn't putting in much time on the tuba) so my "B-flat familiarity" (with my aging brain) has required some (semi-serious to serious) effort. C-sharps...(with any length of tuba), F-sharps/A-sharps/G-sharps (curiously: easier to grasp) double-sharps (not quite as automatic as with C).

a GOOD tuba:
Regardless of which of the four common lengths of tubas (though you've decided to limit choices to B-flat or E-flat, and strongly leaning towards E-flat, obviously), a REALLY GOOD tuba (of any of those lengths) will obviously deliver beaucoups de pleasure (which we all seek).

Maybe (??), this is why I'm (mostly) trying to help think of ways to get around the weight issue...as (again) most really good tubas aren't particularly lightweight.

[scottw]

I am proficient with both Eb and BBb fingerings. My "problem" is separating one from the other. Those brain farts are not fun, but they occur often enough that I have given all this thought to electing to do just one. Eb is the necessary choice, as my Civil War-era really has to be an Eb, not BBb [authenticity]. Couple that with my orthopaedic history, and a light horn becomes a real issue. If this quest doesn't pan out, I will simply continue on as I am and endure the occasional brain farts.
scottw

[Bflatbass]

sent a PM, if you're still looking

[Mary Ann]

Can't offer anything except sympathy for the brain farts, which I also suffer with. If I even look at a C tuba, I'll start screwing up Eb fingerings. If I have been reading bass clef on horn (which I do quite a bit) I start screwing up Eb fingerings. Brains get old, and old things tend to fart a lot.

My NStar in Altieri backpack weighs 25 pounds, and so far, I can do it. But I have to set the bow-end on a chair, sit on the chair, wriggle the straps on, lean forward, stand up, don't fall down.

Funny, because I'm considering looking for an Mfone 282, so I can have more brain farts.

You would love a Norwegian Star.

[GC]

The brainfarts don't totally go away. I started playing Eb (a Civil War era saxhorn) in 2004, and switched completely to Eb in 2008. I have not had to rehearse and perform on a BBb horn more than twice since, but I still have BBb flashbacks, particularly if I'm playing a piece that I learned on BBb before. I tend to memorize and retain music easily, and BBb fingerings bubble up at inconvenient times. Sousa marches in particular drive me crazy because I learned a lot of them in high school and college. It does gradually get better, though.

When I hear a tune and pick it out in my head, until about 5 years ago I did it with BBb fingerings. I finally started doing it with Eb fingerings, and that's when I finally felt like I arrived on Eb.

There are people out there who have brains that can absorb multiple fingering systems and never cross them up. I can't believe that is the case for most people, though.

[UncleBeer]

There are people out there who have brains that can absorb multiple fingering systems and never cross them up.

That's me, I'm afraid. Each horn has such personality for me, that when I pick it up, there's a kinesthetic component as well: this IS my Eb. No question whatsoever.

I rarely play BBb, but I can easily think in BBb. CC, Eb, F: no problem.

[bloke]

@UncleBeer
same here.

Picking up "THIS" tuba means that the fingering system and pitches are "THESE".

exceptions:

I never read and play E-flat (so I'm not very good, but can do the "trumpet in B-flat treble clef thing and play it - EVEN THOUGH it's a 3+1 comp.)

5-valve F cimbasso with (as a workaround for no 6th valve) a #2 slide trigger.
I have to think when playing in the low range (since only 5-valves), but "tooling along" reading the 3rd trombone parts to Mozart's Requiem (even though QUITE busy, YET no really low range) was no problem whatsoever.

PREVIOUS to ditching my C instruments and becoming a B-flat ("amateur", then...?? ) player, I overestimated my B-flat reading ability, but - at this point - it's fine.

[LeMark]

Because I'm forced by profession to stare at music thinking BBb fingers Monday - Friday, and I have the desire to play Eb, i figure I can live without CC tuba in my life.

I could do all 3, But I think my life would be easier without trying

[scottw]

Because I'm forced by profession to stare at music thinking BBb fingers Monday - Friday, and I have the desire to play Eb, i figure I can live without CC tuba in my life.

I could do all 3, But I think my life would be easier without trying

Say "Amen"!

[GC]

Amen.

[Mary Ann]

I didn't have those brain farts with fingerings about 20 years ago, before more than one severe event that had lasting brain effects. I feel lucky that I'm given opportunities to play where the occasional fart isn't a disaster.

And of course --- Cor Anglais fingerings, oboe fingerings, in which the dot on the page means something different EVEN THOUGH the fingering for the dot is the same on both instruments. I lose measures at a time when I start using the fingerings for the oboe PITCHES on the Cor.

Sticking exclusively to Eb tuba for a while, those are getting better ingrained. It was a mistake, in terms of brain farts, to get a CC again, and that is a major reason why I let it go to someone who wanted it.

And then there is constantly reading tbone parts (bass clef) on horn, and the fingering messups between that and the Eb tuba reading the same silly clef. I actually have an ancient Conn 4D that I got on ebay, with the Eb crook, coming soon. It was cheap enough that I can just give it away if it turns out to be such a dog that it's unplayable. But at least when I'm reading bass clef I will still be able to use Eb fingerings instead of falling in the ditch of putting the wrong valves down. Except of course, haha, it only has three valves.

[Ace]

I didn't have those brain farts with fingerings about 20 years ago, before more than one severe event that had lasting brain effects. I feel lucky that I'm given opportunities to play where the occasional fart isn't a disaster.

Mary Ann, I am impressed with your ability to play so many instruments and adapt to their various fingering systems. You are a skilled violinist. When you pick up your viola do you have any trouble reading alto clef?
Ace

[Mary Ann]

Thanks! If I pick it up now, the problem is remembering how to read alto clef, because it's been so long. But the fingerings, for some reason, no problem. Same with cello -- I guess it's a different brain part or something. (I do note that "brain part" rhymes with "brain fart" and I think right now it's still a bit of morning brain fog going on!!)
In a couple hours, off to play with a sextet for the Salvation Army's free meal for the homeless. Something I like doing.

Edit: but if you give me a violin that is tuned a step flat, I won't be able to play it because all the notes are in the wrong place.

[bloke]

The person of whom I speak is deceased, but I knew a concert pianist who played violin quite well, and could pick up a violin and read alto clef viola music.