controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

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controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bloke »

When orchestral principal trombonists encounter music written in the late 1700s through maybe the 1860s written in alto clef, they don't hesitate to pull out a tiny little E-flat trombones with tiny little mouthpieces and play those principal parts (and not just pieces which might be labeled delicate, but boisterous pieces such as Schubert 9), but - beyond that - they pull out giant semi-bass trombones with giant semi-bass trombone mouthpieces and play everything else. A few of them might pull out slightly smaller trombones every once in awhile - maybe a 20/1000ths smaller bore and maybe a 1/4 inch smaller bell (which actually is only smaller on the flair pancake) but why not go for ease and clarity, and mostly use B-flat trombones with half inch bore sizes (or maybe a few thousandths larger) with 8-in bells? In my experience, instruments like that can actually be heard easier - particularly when an entire orchestra is cranking - rather than doing so much extra work to play high on giant equipment.

Everyone sings the praises of a King 3B trombone (along with Conn 6H trombones and other similarly-sized instruments that play well), but none of those people will bring something like that to rehearsals, or dare to try using something like that to play Mahler. If they would just spend some serious time with instruments like that (ok...in the same way that "if tuba players would just spend more serious time with their F tubas"), I believe orchestral principal trombone players would become more comfortable/secure with instruments like that, and wouldn't balk at using them - when really good instruments in that size range have so much potential to make their jobs so much easier. "Because that's not how it's done" is not a good reason to not consider/explore the possibilities of doing anything in particular, or is it?

Additionally, most of this could be applied to quintet trombone playing, though I sort of think that the ideal quintet trombone is probably one of those that's only about 20/1000ths smaller in bore, and with those 8-1/4 in bells, because the quintet trombonist is expected to play in such a wide frequency range.

To me, the .547" bore trombones with f attachments are ideal for orchestral >second< trombone playing...
... I also am of the opinion that a whole row of trombones of the .547" size in a wind band is a bunch of trombones that are too large.

Tuba players are somewhat this way, but I find trombone players - on average - to be particularly group-thinking...ie. "Were I to begin using a .500" or .508" bore trombone to play my 1st trombone parts most of the time, it would get around to other players in town and other players in other orchestras in other cities, and what would they think of me?"

=================
...but bloke, look at your own huge tuba... Is this the pot calling the kettle black?
I would argue that it is not. There's only one tuba position in symphony orchestras (not three high/middle/low tuba parts - and thank goodness for that), and I use all sorts of tubas that I bring along to play different pieces of music. I believe that I vary my equipment as much as most any working tuba player - probably more than most all, and don't mind dragging along two or even three instruments - if those will play particular pieces best - in my judgment- and deliver the most musical effect. Pretty much, I've decided that my very large compensating euphonium is the biggest thing that I need to use to play serpent and ophicleide parts which have been assigned to tuba players (with a confident compensating range being important), F tuba is appropriate for way more pieces than many American tuba players would agree (I recently used mine to play the entirety of Mahler 1, and not just for the humorous solo in the slow movement), I use my really large tuba to achieve the types of effects that composers/arrangers write that obviously have that type of sound in mind, and I use my F cimbasso that I built - probably 1,000% - 10,000% more often than other players who own similar instruments - to play particular pieces of music (whereby an arranger seemingly/obviously reluctantly assigned a fourth trombone part to the tuba player, because that's who they knew would be there to play it).
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by arpthark »

Tangential question coming from someone who has no orchestra experience:

has the shift seen in brass whereby instruments are getting bigger/louder also been reflected in the woodwinds and strings? i.e., are the clarinets of today bigger and louder than they were 50 years ago? What about violins/violas/'celli/bassi?
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by LeMark »

The symphony I play with had a principal trombone that brought a Bach 36 for a while. I always told him how much I liked that sound, but eventually he went back to his large bore tenor
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by windshieldbug »

I'll take a leap here and go off on a tangent...

Orchestral brass will think more compactly when they stop perceiving having to compete with the experience of MEGA BASS QUADROPHONIC MOVIE AND CONTEMPORARY MUSIC SOUND. It may have happened first in the concert hall, but it's a fools errand now.

You may now go back to your regularly scheduled thread.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bloke »

arpthark wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2023 9:34 am Tangential question coming from someone who has no orchestra experience:

has the shift seen in brass whereby instruments are getting bigger/louder also been reflected in the woodwinds and strings? i.e., are the clarinets of today bigger and louder than they were 50 years ago? What about violins/violas/'celli/bassi?
Yes to all, and at a price. The price is the forgoing of easily- distinguishable sonic characteristics of the individual types of instruments.

I believe that all of this mess began in the seventies - with orchestras trying to sound like the over-microphoned and over-edited London label Chicago Symphony recordings, and this would include the Chicago Symphony players' own reactions to their own recordings. It's a cancer which hasn't been defeated. ... and yes, I am aware that some principal trombone players - quite prior to the 1970s - used giant semi-bass trombones as a matter of routine.

To the specific topic, even if all the other instruments are now built larger - in order to be louder while sacrificing their characteristic sounds somewhat, a smaller trombone still makes it easier to cut through all that stuff - particularly in the higher range - than a large trombone is able to do that.

Even though it's a novelty piece and rarely performed, the one piece that really causes me to raise my eyebrows and fairly consistently over the decades is "Bolero". This is obviously written for a small trombone playing a very smooth melody with effortless-sounding phrasing, and should not come off as a demonstration of strength or prowess. The huge semi-bass trombones playing this requires superhero players (who aren't that particularly common, even today). Further, even the superhero players playing the solo passages in this particular piece would likely sound better playing smaller instruments.
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Post by Dents Be Gone! »

I agree, guys. This is the way to go.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bone-a-phone »

Ok, that's a trigger issue, so to speak. :laugh: Trombone joke, sorry.

Image

I kind of like the altos (even though I don't play one), and there are a lot of discussions about when they are appropriate. Often the choice depends on what other people are playing. If the group is playing period instruments and it's the right work, then yes altos. If everyone else is playing full-bore loud modern instruments, the alto is a harder sell. They have a different sound when played right. Some people get and play alto like they are small tenors (with big mouthpieces), and at that point you might as well just play a small tenor, but an alto should sound different from a small tenor. A little more mournful trumpet - a bit flugelly.

There is this trend in trombone mouthpieces to play a big rim on a smaller cup. I think this has really gained traction in the last 20 years due to Doug Elliott who has noticed that most trombone players benefit face/fit-wise from a larger rim but sound-wise from a smaller cup. So I for example play a 2G size rim on my tenors, but with a 5G size (or smaller) cup. Plus, I can play the same rim (but different cup sizes) on all my tenors from 500-547.

I showed up at a tbone choir where the conductor was a symphonic bone player, and he usually plays a big 547 for everything. I showed up with a 48h, which is like a 6h, but if a 6h were a shark with a laser on its head. It gets a nice dark sound when you play nice, but when you push it, the sound gets edgy fast, and articulations sound harder than you intend. I got some snarky comments, but I was playing lead and the lead part stood out on top and was much lighter than the rest of the mud-dubbing going on down below.

At a tbone conference last year, I asked a quintet tbone player (who has also subbed with the Boston Symph) what sort of gear adjustments they make between orchestra and quintet. This person said they play the exact same gear (547 bore). I don't want to criticize someone who's that successful, but there's a hell of a difference between playing Mahler in Boston Symphony Hall and playing Ewald in a cafeteria. Personally, I play the smallest equipment I can make work. For a local community symphony on the lead part, that means a 525 (or 500/525 dual) bore horn. For quintet, I've been playing a 3b (508 bore - mainly to avoid covering the french horn sound). For tbone quartet I play 500 - 508 for lead, 525 for middle parts and 547 or 562 for bass. For big band bass, I play 562. If I were playing big band lead, I'd play 500 or 508.

If you talk to trumpet players about bore, they look at you like "oh, you're one of those crazy people who believes bore size has something to do with your sound, aren't you?" So I don't talk to trumpet players any more if I can help it. :eyes: On trombone, bore is mostly about how much air you can put through the horn before it starts getting edgy. This is why symphony players play on big horns - they want a lot of volume with no edge (I believe this has changed over time, we used to think some edge was ok in some works). This is also why playing alto in a big orchestra can be tricky - those small bores can edge out pretty early. This is also why big band players should play smaller horns - you want a little cutting edge especially when the top part gets loud (you find a surprising number of big band players who insist on playing 547 for lead book :slap: ). In pop music you should avoid big bores because the large bore just makes a lot of mud which is unpleasant to listen to and makes everything else hard to hear, while the small bore will get some edge and be heard.

If you read a lot over in the tbone forum, several orchestral lead players will claim to occasionally scale down their big 547 on the lead part. Ever since Emery Remington started to standardize the 88h at Eastman, the 547 has been considered the only horn a serious trombonist should use. This prejudice is particularly tiring to me. I mean, I love my 88h, but I have a 525 slide for it. At this weekend's church job, I'm playing my 8h w/525 (no trigger, smaller slide bore), and it is GLORIOUS. At a different church with the quintet next week I'm on the small 3b, and with the big band this weekend with the bass 562. For everything under heaven there is a season. :thumbsup:
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bloke »

paraphrase:
"...but when it comes to a superhero/big-five orchestra, in Awesome Symphony Hall..."

These days, even small-city orchestras are (mostly) loaded up with conservatory-trained players (in all sections).
Those who aren't are often older players who haven't yet retired.
Conservatories (and conservatory-level university music departments - via PELL/loans/all sorts of other money/misguided parents/etc.) kick out GEOMETRICALLY more orchestra-ready players than there are jobs...so you'll commonly encounter people who matriculated Juilliard (etc.) playing for $3500/year...

It's not that these players aren't as qualified as "big five" players, but its that "big five" orchestras only hire (at the most) three or four oboe or clarinet players at a time - not 40 or 400 of them.

Further (as this trend - over-recruiting - has reached all the way through the bowed stringed instruments), the same trend is now occurring. "Hot" (playing...ok...and sometimes "lookin' ") fiddle players can be found playing in the same types of (no more than) a a-mil'-a-year budget orchestras.
Getting back the the thread: These orchestras can produce tons of quality/tuned/commercially-viable sound, there are plenty of trombonists who can "keep up" with that, and have no problem putting out tremendous/quality amounts of sound.

All I'm sayin' is that it's got to be tons easier for principal trombonists to (mostly) use .500" - .508/9" 8-inch-bell B-flat instruments (to cover most works written from the latter-1800's onward, and (as the previous post points out and reinforces my point) there's tons of (NOT music director, but) trombone "group-think" which causes so many of them to dismiss that option. ...and there's nothing at all wrong with all of those same principal players owning .547" bore trombones (maybe even a DOZEN of them...After all: Trombones are cheap).

footnote:
Regardling "Awesome (USA) Symphony Hall"...European halls (often) are TOTALLY different, whereas playing like typical American trombone sections play (ie. volume/decibels) would define a HOT MESS.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by russiantuba »

Last week I played a program with a pro “highway” symphony and chorus. One of the pieces was a sing along and I brought my CC for everything though it had some C#s and Ds above the staff. I get there and it’s not the thickest scoring in the choir and after other playing that day with a one rehearsal then a dress rehearsal setting, I brought my F.

The night before, the bass trombonist was shocked I was at the same octave as him and noticed and thought it was poorly written. At the dress rehearsal, he asked me 2 pieces later when I was using my F, and I mentioned I already had. It actually got better sound, balance, and depth, minus the last low F of the piece.

Remove the CC vs F concept. Roger Bobo didn’t play on anything larger than a Miraphone 186, Jim Akins produced so much depth and power with Columbus Symphony on a 4/4 York CC and Cerveny piggy, Warren Deck’s recordings of Copland 3, Night on Bald Mountain/Pictures was on a large bore 4/4 rotor CC. Listen to Gene play Prokofiev 5 with SLSO under Slatkin on an HB2. Many Russian orchestras use a St. Petersburg (Zimmerman style tuba). Joe Novotny used a King rotor CC on those Bernstein/NYPO recordings. These are monster players and sounds I strive to get.

People play on 6/4 York style CC tubas because Jacobs did. However, Jacobs got those horns by chance (one because his teacher didn’t find the leadpipe fit). Bob LeBlanc, while the Professor of Tuba at The Ohio State University, would take lessons with Jacobs. Jacobs preferred the 4/4 York CC that LeBlanc had and was willing to trade one of the 6/4 Yorks for it.

Now when I am asked if I’m ever going to get a 6/4, I mentioned I’d rather not sound like a foghorn.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by Schlitzz »

Nah, the boutique era is in full swing. Choose your alloy, carbon fiber composition, bore/bell size. That covers the alto down to the contrabass.

Each player sounds different, and the choice of equipment helps the player shape their sound.

One thing I do know, is that no matter what orchestra I listen to, playing the same work, I can never hear a distinct style of playing from the viola players.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bloke »

Schlitzz wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:42 am Nah, the boutique era is in full swing.
Yeah.. sort of like those people - even some who are coming up on forty years old or so - who are dying their hair purple, green, or both - in order to appear to be individual and to stand out, yet - by doing so - become stereotypes - and end up being pigeonholed by others.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by Schlitzz »

And with all of that effort, there's still a viola section. They carpool, showing up 15 before the downbeat of rehearsal. Unwashed, questionably groomed, as we sit for long periods. A conductor (shaved head, black collared shirt, tan pants (daily outfit)) rambles on.

When it all sounds good, is widely attended, with appreciation, there are no issues. When there are concerns, we then worry about equipment, personal appearance in dress/hair color/piercings/tattoos..... We're pivoting from orchestra, to orchestI.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bloke »

We should abandon the word "orchestra" and start referring to these ensembles as "collectives".
Also, we must immediately stop discrimination against the untalented, in the audition process.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by Schlitzz »

bloke wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:12 am
Also, we must immediately stop discrimination against the untalented, in the audition process.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by York-aholic »

bloke wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 8:12 am Also, we must immediately stop discrimination against the untalented, in the audition process.
Excellent. Now I’ve got a chance!
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Some old Yorks, Martins, and perhaps a King rotary valved CC
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by windshieldbug »

Schlitzz wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 12:42 am One thing I do know, is that no matter what orchestra I listen to, playing the same work, I can never hear a distinct style of playing from the viola players.

That's because they don't play the viola, they operate the viola. :wall:
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by Schlitzz »

windshieldbug wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2023 10:03 am
That's because they don't play the viola, they operate the viola. :wall:
Yeah, getting a good sized group, that’s collaborative, talented, with a competent conductor is is a dream for most community orchestras. I’ll stick to the band. Lower maintenance, better performance/product.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bloke »

I'm lucky enough so-as most everyone plays better'n me.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by Schlitzz »

I’m making it up as I go…. If what I’m describing sounds real, you need more therapy.
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Re: controversial: Will orchestral principal trombone players ever rethink?

Post by bloke »

The first thing they need to do is to send their trombones off to Kansas City so they can come back green or orange.
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