ergonomics and 6/4 piston "York"-style C tubas

[bloke]

I'm typically not one to encounter "ergonomic" issues, and - yes - I can play 6/4 C tubas for extended periods of time, but (as they all seem to copy the original, and as the original presented logistical challenges relating to "getting from the bore of the beginning of the mouthpipe all the up to the size of the bell throat over only 16 feet") the mouthpipes on nearly all of them (and please don't mention the Gronitz as - clearly - its 5/4 sized) are "shortcutted" - requiring their players to somehow fit them onto their legs at approximately a 45 degree angle.

Besides misinterpreting copying the CSO York (as a super-lightweight tuba , when - in reality - it had the holy crap buffed out of it), I'm thinking that another reason for building some of these so thin is to make it just a bit easy to hold them at (yes, I'm judging) an awkward angle.

With EVERYTHING (vs. B-flat) on them, being cut to the quick (again: to get them down to only 16 feet long) I just wonder if someone might experiment with finding SOME place where two or three inches could be sneaked off of some new model (yet - somehow - still offering the remarkably good intonation characteristics of the Yamaha knock-off), and end up with an easier-to-hold instrument.

Notice (and the picture would better have been taken from 15 feet in the air, and zoomed in, but...) the full 90-degree mouthpipes on both my F and B-flat instruments:





...I've thought about this for a long-long time, but was reminded of it - today - when reviewing this amazing video:

[LibraryMark]

That's how I have to hold my JP377. Drives me nuts. Too bad - it's a great horn otherwise.

[bloke]

That's how I have to hold my JP377. Drives me nuts. Too bad - it's a great horn otherwise.

response to sidebar:

It's built just like all the other great 3+1 comp. E-flats.

I continue to suggest placing those instruments (regardless of maker) up on the left thigh.
Yes, it is angled (bottom bow towards the back - on the left - tracing the fold where the left leg meets the abdomen), but it's remarkably comfortable - and for several sets of tunes.

Have you tried that out?

"Attempting to hold a top-action as if it's a front-action"...nope, and NOPE.

[LibraryMark]

I've tried all sorts of ways to hold it. When it's on my left thigh, the valves seem a mile away. But you must be aware, I am seriously short for my weight so that might be a factor. I usually have it on the same stand that I put my BBb on (VMI 3302) and that seems to be the best but it's still not comfortable. It just seems to me that if the leadpipe came around the bell a little more it would be a nicer fit (for an old fat guy).

[bloke]

I've tried all sorts of ways to hold it. When it's on my left thigh, the valves seem a mile away. But you must be aware, I am seriously short for my weight so that might be a factor. I usually have it on the same stand that I put my BBb on (VMI 3302) and that seems to be the best but it's still not comfortable. It just seems to me that if the leadpipe came around the bell a little more it would be a nicer fit (for an old fat guy).

okay, but before my epic hernia surgery I got off of a keto diet and and probably 40 lb. back up from being basically "not fat", and yet it works for me.

Unless you're completely certain that you understand what I'm describing, I'm willing to post a picture later.

[Rick Denney]

My Holton has the standard (for PhatBAT's) partial leadpipe wrap, but one would need gorilla arms to reach the valves if it didn't.

But, you know, that floor stand seems to solve a lot of the problems people report with this issue. I use a stand for bigger contrabass tubas even when they have the full 90-degree leadpipe wrap, as does my Hirsbrunner.

A super-wide bottom bow that is square to the body requires a wider spread of the thighs, and not all body morphologies are going to work with that, either.

Worse for me is what to do with my left hand. Lots of tubas need help from the left hand for various activities but don't provide a comfortable place for it to do its job. The Willson 3100 is the poster child for this issue--my body is screaming for left-hand stabilization but the instrument doesn't offer a resting spot except just grabbing the outer branch. At least it's also top-heavy. C tubas with lower top bows may be a bit better in this regard.

Rick "started using stands about 40 years ago" Denney

[Tubeast]

I´m using a single shoulder strap slung around my right shoulder to solve the issue Rick Denney is describing.
For this to do any good on my Willson, the top line of that strap crosses from the right shoulder underneath my chin to a pipe on the inner left of the tuba´s body.

That serves two functions:
- NO left hand needed to support the horn in playing position.
- tight strap will serve as a rest for left wrist and provide a pivot point for perfect control over the left hand operating 4th slide. That slide is aligned in a plane on the player´s side of the body.

(Most will use the top bow as a pivot point for their wrists to operate slides on the audience-facing side of the tuba)

That strap is adjusted to work in sitting position only. No standing or marching gigs with a real-33-pound behemoth...

[BRS]

.

[bloke]

Since there are really no such things as 30 to 50 piece German marching bands in the United States, and the only tip of the hat to Oktoberfest is at most a 12 or 15 piece sit-down band, or - if they march, they march for a very short distance, the only marching thing that I use any more is a sousaphone. I either have one or if - I recently sold one that I had - I run down to a nearby school and borrow one. I've outfitted my compact Holton B-flat with two very stout strap rings in locations so as the mouthpiece lines up perfectly with my mouth, but I believe I would still prefer to march with a sousaphone, particularly since there are no strict rules in the United States about what type of instrument one marches with, and really the only marching I do is out-of-step marching with jazz bands - probably around Mardi Gras time, and possibly at a few funerals.

[LargeTuba]

I think by routing the Lead-Pipe differently you can achieve this.

[Sousaswag]

Ergonomics vary so much from person to person. Many people say “use a stand” but don’t realize that the instrument would literally have to float in the air off the lap for some of us to reach the mouthpipe. Not a great look or feel.

With the York copies a stand is probably a welcome addition to many.

However, yes, I think some of the York model tubas have that mouthpipe in a really bad spot. The mouthpipe is just barely long enough to slightly wrap around the bell that it seems to be a design characteristic, or even a flaw.

I believe the horn above was Joseph Guimaraes’ and I think he’s done that to another Nirschl he uses as well. It looks like it’s a great mod for taller people like myself. I’ve considered doing this to many instruments but just don’t want to ruin the finish.

Some instruments that have long-enough mouthpipes that are in C would be the 2165/2265/6450 with the SLP pipes, and pretty much any large rotor instrument. They don’t exhibit so much of a rotation that the York copies do.

[bloke]

I believe the original purchaser of the CSO York was a short-guy...thus the mouthpipe.

Why copy that "just because"...??

Bravo to that Nirschl tuba's owner.

[edfirth]

My old King 1241 and an old 4 valve top banger 4/4 York I had featured those shorter leadpipes and I found that it I was sittimg squarely on the chair with the leadpipe hitting me dead on the bell actually pointed somewhat forward as opposed to the right or left. And I suspect that was what it was about. Sousa obviously wanted it to go straight up. The best example of this that comes to mind is a time when I was at an Orlando Phil job and the tuba player wanted me to check it out in the house, which I did but the low brass was straightg accros the back. I could barely hear the him so on the next show I convinced him to turn to his right and the sound was Very there. In fact they used to call front valve horns "side action" which kind of fits. I, like others her do find those short leadpipes a little bit uncomfortable... and the later 1241 Kings had wrap around leadpipes so probably others did too. But it could be a possibility. Best, Ed

[Sousaswag]

I love talking leadpipe height. Why are so many of these horns built with pipes too low? Probably because us freaks of nature are few and far between! I’ve sold many a tuba because of that.

Joseph’s Nirschl mod seems well done and the pipe came from Walter himself from what I understand.

The weirdest example of this style of mouthpipe to me is the MW 3225. The Baer 4/4 model. What a nightmare. Why they decided to put that 45 degree pipe on a 4/4 instrument is beyond me. It is near impossible for me to play that thing without a stand or on the chair.

[UncleBeer]

Interesting. The 45 degree tubas fit much better on my lap than the perpendicular ones. And the bell points into the hall much better as well.

[bloke]

My F tuba's mouthpipe is too low (for me), but I manage just fine...I just adjust my posture.
It's easier to adjust mySELF when I weigh what I should, but that's another issue.
I bought this instrument new in 1982.
There's no evidence of red-rot.
If I could build up enough courage, I would
- loosen the 'pipe from the receive back to a certain point
- bend the last few inches upward
- anneal the distorted/ovaled area
- solder everything back down
- cable two or three drilled dent balls (feed in from the fifth casing) through the distorted area and round it back out.

Unc...Everyone already know's you're weird.

[GC]

I have a very short torso, and putting my JP377 on my right thigh puts the mouthpiece at eyebrow level. Putting it on the left puts a lot of stress on my arms. Using a cheap drum throne as a stand is comfortable, fixes the height problem, and takes almost all the weight off my arms. Now if only my right rotator cuff would quit complaining (surgery in the near future) . . .

[Casca Grossa]

I have a very short torso, and putting my JP377 on my right thigh puts the mouthpiece at eyebrow level. Putting it on the left puts a lot of stress on my arms. Using a cheap drum throne as a stand is comfortable, fixes the height problem, and takes almost all the weight off my arms. Now if only my right rotator cuff would quit complaining (surgery in the near future) . . .

I'm hoping my recent rotator cuff, biceps, labrum surgery helps with some of my issues. I'm 12 weeks out from surgery now but still cannot play. Good luck.

[jtm]

Thanks everyone for adding this reason to my list of reasons I'm unlikely to ever get something bigger than my super comfortable 188.

[matt g]

A tuba can rotate about three axes, no?

Anyhow, when I sit the 2165* on my lap with approximately a 45 degree angle off of vertical with a slight rotation about the vertical, maybe 10 degrees, it puts the mouthpiece at a slightly downward angle that’s comfortable on the face.

*The 2165 wrap on the leadpipe is similar to the Holton where it’s about 45 degrees around the bell. The Nirschl’s are about 20-30 degrees from what I remember.