for you bass trombonists who remember the Holton "Glantz bar"

[bloke]

Considering that (something like...??) there was a monetary limit for this repair (basically, a grand), the low brass guy is a friend (so I agreed to do it, but - super-procrastinated), I didn't agree to convert any linkage, and this thing is going to used by college children (which meant that "tiny screws" needed to be kept to a minimum)...

I straightened out the bell, (pretty much) rebuilt the main tuning slide, slicked out the playing slide, soldered some loose braces, converted E to D (waiting on a pair of doglegs - in transit), and converted the "Glantz" bar to the thumb/third-digit action, and - yes - I will clean up burned lacquer and rattle-can those places.

It's not elegant, but no Minibal links will be lost on the foolbawl field, and these strategies kept my costs down.
...Hey...It's only a Holton. (To me, Holton - at least, in my lifetime - has been the "Chrysler products" of brass instruments.)

Other than the stuff marked red, the rest of the stuff was cut/altered/recycled from the "Glantz" bar mess.





video link: https://i.imgur.com/VbnSJah.mp4


bloke "I don't particularly enjoy making crap for other people, particularly when it's for crap instruments, and on a budget."

[bloke]

OK...

The dogleg doo-whackies that I ordered arrived today and thus built a D slide out of an oem E slide, I've got this thing (customer's definition of) "finished" (plus a good bit of free work, because I don't want to get blamed for a bunch of other stuff that was wrong with this instrument), tomorrow (after both of our Easter gigs - two miles apart, which end at the same time) I'm handing this thing off to my friend, he'll hand it to the university's low brass professor (Wednesday, at another gig that they are both hired to play), and - hopefully - I'll be paid.



video (deserves an Emmy Award)...

https://i.imgur.com/iv93Shf.mp4

[Schlitzz]

*Doo-whackers, because the D slide gives you more options....

[bloke]

Agreed.

They didn't agree to pay for me altering the case, so it's probably going to get bent.

[bone-a-phone]

It's not elegant, but no Minibal links will be lost on the foolbawl field, and these strategies kept my costs down.
...Hey...It's only a Holton. (To me, Holton - at least, in my lifetime - has been the "Chrysler products" of brass instruments.)

Holton made some junk, but the 180 can be a great horn. I'd love to pick up a nice 180 with a D slide and split triggers. The 169 and 185 were great singles, and the 180 was a great double, although dependents aren't that sought after these days. The 181 even as the only independent double is not as universally loved, I don't think, at least not by me. Holton also made some great tenors, and I've owned a couple. There's a Holton sound, and particularly the older basses definitely have a following. It's crazy the kind of money an old 169 single goes for (one on trombone chat now for I think $4k).

[bloke]

I aligned the wider of the two F slides, because I didn't want to be blamed for knocking it out of alignment (I didn't see any evidence of damage). It was pretty terrible. It was both 3D skew and 2D angular.

I also aligned the main tuning slide which was terrible, but it was obviously (badly) damaged, so I can't be finger-pointing at G LeBlanc Corp, regarding that.

BUT...
I don't like crappy stainless nickel (that bluish chrome-nickel crap) plating over brass on inside slide hardware on instruments are supposed to be professional instruments.
Speaking of another manufacturer in the same dairy state (that's still in business), I also don't like regular nickel plating over brass inside slide hardware that should be solid nickel on instruments that are supposed to be boutique quality.
Referring back to the Holton 18X models.. cork plates made out of sheet metal.. seriously?

Every make and model has its fans. As an example, look how many people are buying all sorts of pieces of sh!t automobiles and trucks... and I'm not just referring to ev's.
I'm on Facebook enough that I see that this (Holton) model has its fans, but I just never run into people on paid gigs and in busy orchestras using these things.

There's a wonderful company with wonderful people working there not too far from Munich that makes really high quality tubas - and we all love that company, but I don't see any of their piston C tubas (and undoubtedly there are going to be exceptions) used by working tuba players, other than a few studio teachers, some of their students, and other students who ordered them from websites. Unlike the Holton bass trombones, they're put together well, but just... well....

Speaking of a Holton "Fuchs" 169, I rigged one of those up whereby I lengthened the F tuning slide and set it up with a stop rod so that its owner could reach back and flick it out to play low B natural. They didn't have enough funding to go to any more lengths than that, and I really don't think they wanted to alter the instrument any more than that. In order to lengthen that slide to give it enough length to push it out to play B natural, I took length away from that wide bow n the F attachment. I like these. They're nothing like 180/ 181 models, and I think I like the 169's, because they sound like Conn bass trombones.

Everyone already knows that my favorite bass trombone sounds (and the quality was just fine) are/were the two basic versions of Elkhart Conn bass trombones (in well-preserved condition), and with original lacquer - whereby they are restorable, and haven't had the crap buffed out of them by some past idiot or (eek!) "overhaul shop".

Old Bach basses are built fine, but that's just not my favorite sound. Let me be clear: I'm glad to work any job with any player with any horn where the gig pays.

The King basses were never popular until they rebranded them "Benge" for a short period of time and changed things about their appearance. I like the regular (vintage) King basses, and also like the Duo Gravis King bass.

I also like the George Roberts Olds bass, but not too many of the rest of them. Particularly, early on they were clueless.

The Reynolds Contempora was pretty amazing if somebody wants to kill the universe.

I chuckle at the boutique "S" brand with all of their options and stuff. Regardless of which of the countless versions, they all seem to sound the same, and that sound is Bland.

Yamaha basses - to my ears - are as Yamaha tubas other than the 826, and let me congratulate Wade, once again.

OK;
I tried to post enough stuff here to where I could piss off everyone... and without carnival barking the brand that I sell.

[bone-a-phone]

Bass trombones are still an immature breed. They've only started to standardize the design in the last 20-30 years.. 562 bore, 9.5" bell, 2 inline valves in F and Gb/D, tuning in bell, fore and middle finger levers.

Single valve basses are incomplete instruments unless you have an Eb extension on the valve, and no one does.

The big problem with bass bones is that the design didn't mature until they stopped making interesting trombones in the 1970s.

The modern Conn 62h is something I wish would catch on more. The Bach 50s that I've played have been fine. It's a matter of build quality and consistency for those two.

To me Shires and Yamaha are both bland, and Edwards is typically too heavy. Getzen has some really nice tenor models, but I haven't played the 1052 bass enough to endorse it, but the 1062 is just too big.

Unfortunately, kids just want shiny and popular, so they fall for the Chinese horns which just seem to lack personality and character.

I recently sold my Kanstul, which I was never able to come to terms with. I bought a rare and much maligned 83h, and I'm in process of tweaking it to taste. Its a much better horn than its reputation suggests. There's just not an affordable 88h or 186 of modern design bass trombones.

The 73h or maybe Bach 50B3 was probably the closest to an interesting sounding bass bone that could be easily converted into a modern design with a D slide. The Olds P24g was another that I liked stock, except for the levers. But these designs didn't last long (except the Bach).

[bloke]

To you so long I understand what you're saying about incomplete, but I think you would get the goat of a lot of tuba players who own four valve non-compensating tubas for the same reason.

The thing about single valve bass trombones and four valve non-compensating tubas is that both of them can easily cover an overwhelming majority of the music written for them.

I'm reasonably sure that the Conn bass trombone models that came out after the Elkhart/Abilene era use the same bell mandrels as the older models. The only issues I have with them (lately) is quality - as well as latter-era King versus original-era Conn construction methods (plasma welding vs. traditional seaming, etc... even changes in the seaming locations), which do make the instruments different.

Another big secret is that inside outside playing slide tolerances are sloppier than they were in the past. This allows crappy built and slightly damaged slides to work better, but we all know how a leakier instrument responds versus a tighter instrument.

[Schlitzz]

Old Bach basses are built fine, but that's just not my favorite sound. Let me be clear: I'm glad to work any job with any player with any horn where the gig pays.

OK;
I tried to post enough stuff here to where I could piss off everyone... and without carnival barking the brand that I sell.

We need to talk to Mrs. Bloke about your salt intake, eating more broccoli, and regular hydration practices. Geezus.

[bloke]

2:13 A.M...??

Obviously, no Easter gigs (unless they start when most of ours are done)...
What a bummer. (double scale plus cartage, you know)
' so sorry you're up that late allowing yourself to be trolled/triggered by the left-behind words of some old fart you've never even met.

[Schlitzz]

2:13 A.M...??

Obviously, no Easter gigs (unless they start when most of ours are done)...
What a bummer. (double scale plus cartage, you know)
' so sorry you're up that late allowing yourself to be trolled/triggered by the left-behind words of some old fart you've never even met.

I'm always scheduled for Saturday night security at a movie theater, and a cluster of car dealerships. DS+ charging. I got thirsty, hit the Wendy's at 10pm, and the kid gave me a XL iced coffee. I asked for a large iced tea. Came home and went to sleep. Had to pee at 2am, then the dog had to pee, so I multitasked. I did get my maintenance kit of ultra pure stuff, and a JK KB3 mouthpiece for my 1690. So there's been some progress. I'm sorry y'all lost to Purdue. Hope you had a wonderful dinner, with Mrs. Bloke at Bob Evans. Happy Easter!!

[bloke]

From what I've been reading lately, I was under the impression that you were after my @$$...
I'll chalk all of it up to lighthearted sniping.

' glad you're working!

I'm still trying to dig out of the last three years propping up two of my adult children.
(sorta challenging, with everything costing 2 to 3 times as much...)

no...They're not lazy, but - candidly - I have two who have "issues"...

[bone-a-phone]

In my brief foray into tuba playing, I learned that if you just take a bass bone part down an octave, a tuba player will complain about it being gratuitously low. This says to me that you could probably get by on a 3 valve BBb and certainly get by on 4v in a way that you just can't get by on a single trigger bass bone. Bass bone parts are written comparatively lower than tuba parts, if you consider that mechanically, a tuba is built to play an octave below a bass bone.

I play bass bone in a big band. My predecessor used a 70h single. He had a lot of notes written up, note names and positions written in. Single triggers are an easier double. They're lighter and cheaper. They don't sound better just due to being single valve. People use them because they're easier. Period. They're a shortcut. Bass bone has to play C and B. Anything else is maybe a 4th bone, but not really a bass.

You can play a lot of tuba music before you need a C or B 3 octaves below middle C. And how often are pedal notes required on tuba? Even tenor bones play pedals.

I think you're right about the mandrels. My ~1979 83h appears to use the same mandrel as the 7x and 11x models. The bigger 6x mandrel bells are prized by many, but I think the smaller bell is more playable and less limited - more general purpose.

The King 6b was ths most popular from that line of bass bones, but it's interesting to me that the Chinese chose to copy the 7b or 8b instead, and no one makes a modern equivalent of the popular 6b duo gravis, or any smaller double valve bone at all. Young players are obsessed with size over sound or playability.

I'd really like to see a large tenor/small bass double valve instrument. It would be more useful to me than a single valve but otherwise full-on bass.

[bloke]

I totally get the big band thing...but not a ton of "classical" orchestral music features B's (or even C's).

My buddy often brings his (real/unadulterated) 72H to (so-called) "masterworks" concerts, and brings his (bloke-cobbled-together) 1970's-Miraphone-made-copy-of-a-72H-with-recently-made-Conn-Selmer-outside-playing-slide-tubes-and-a-transplanted-Jinbao-knockoff-of-a-Yamaha-in-line-two-rotor-set-up bass trombone for "pops" concerts (whereby C's and B's DO occasionally appear). I get exasperated at name-droppers using "so-and-so did so-and-so" as (supposedly) a good reason to also do so-and-so...but here I go doing what I find to be annoying: I'm fairly sure that Doug Yeo used a two-rotor bass only when he absolutely needed it. something else...The B-gliss in the Bartok...so why aren't all bass trombones set up from the factory to do that without having to fake it? The answer is because most bass trombonists either do that glissando never, once, twice, or a handful of times in their lives.
Low B...?? sure...way more, but not often in a symphony orchestra playing long-hair stuff.

As obsolete as symphony orchestras are, "big bands" (though a more recent invention) are even more obsolete.
There are no (or - if any - rare) "big band leagues/societies/non-profit-inc's." to fund them...(other than a few military-funded ones)...and no one wants to pay $4500 for one to play at their daughter's wedding (music she probably doesn't care for anyway), so they typically play gratis, $20/man, a $400 fee to pay for the band's truck's gasoline, etc., or some such.

Don't get me wrong, I DO get your point, and (having played a few big band gigs on my cimbasso - two that paid decently, as they were affiliated with a symphony orchestra, and one that paid nuthin' - as it wasn't affiliated with anyone) I LIKE playing in them, and have ALWAYS liked listening to them...and (again) pops/rock/etc. charts that symphony orchestras play feature B-naturals as well...but (as unboltable as so many basses are these days) it's sorta nice to not have to hold all that hardware up in the air when not needed, yes?

The valve section I'm building for my bass trombone (ie. a regular 9-foot bass trombone "cimbasso" rig) will have SIX (not five, not four) valves, so as to be fully chromatic and without the low C (ie. were it only a 5-valve system) being "suck" sharp. It will likely also feature a secondary main tuning slide (for micro-tuning any pitch on the fly). The bell section is a Yamaha 322 (and yet, it does have a (not Yamaha...LOL) playing slide, which I probably won't use very often), and the bell section's F slide (yes) can be pulled out enough for B...but I'm not a particularly good slider, and have to practice diligently for a couple of weeks to play an hour long (etc.) bass trombone gig (too much, and I have other stuff that people expect me to do).

your comparison: 3-valve tubas
It's not just that tuba music is rarely written down there (other than by composers/arrangers who don't know better), but - once tubas reach a certain body size - those pitches can be played with only three valves. You know: the "false tones" phenomenon

extended bass trombone range: "
Thanks to Allen Ostrander for having Reynolds stick a second rotor on his Reynolds bass trombone.
otherwise:
Thanks to the inventors of midi keyboards...whereby ignoramus composers/arrangers can ask their keyboard amplifiers to (effortlessly) play the near-impossible and the completely-impossible in most any instrument's voice.




bloke "I like working with bass trombonists."

[bone-a-phone]

I stopped playing in orchestras because there just isn't enough action. I do love the music, but I like to play more often, and it would be nice to get the line now and then. I don't even play in bands because there are just too many people playing the same thing. Most of my playing is tbone quartet, brass quintet, adult mentor in a small college band and big band. I started my own quintet so I could play tenor, because I play bass in the other groups. I'm really a tenor player, I play bass reluctantly because there don't seem to be many active bass bone players around this area.

Tbone quartet offers the widest range of playing. Sometimes the bass is a tuba, sometimes a string bass, sometimes an e-bass, sometimes a whole rhythm section, sometimes a solo voice, sometimes a freight train, and sometimes just a 4th voice. That's probably where I play the most low Bs (particularly Elkjer arrangements), and some tunes are a steady flow of low Cs. I wouldn't mind doing an occasional E pull, and I had an Eb extension made for a 70h I used to own, but a trombone without a trigger F or E means a lot of 6th and 7th positions, which gets tiring on a regular basis. And it's not practical to carry two instruments when one could do everything if it only had 2 valves. So as a practical thing, when you have to actually live with the instrument, I just define bass bone as "two valves".

I've got a King 1480 (predecessor to the 5b) small single trigger bass-y kind of thing that has the best sounding low D I've ever played, but it needs something to be a real bass. I'm contemplating another Eb extension, or I have most of the parts for a plugin valve...

[bloke]

I like playing in orchestras because (if the concert isn't like last month's, whereby ALL parts were friggin' CRAZY-HARD) most of the charts are easy, things I've played several times before, that there's some pretty good dough involved.

Pops concerts (roughly 2/3rd of orchestra concerts) keep bass 'bone players pretty busy...and (yes) a few low C's and B's.
(I'm pretty sure that big band arrangers stick those pitches in 4th trombone parts, because the only other person in the band who band play pitches in that range is the pianist, as the "jazz orchestra" has - long ago - evolved away from the bass saxophone and sousaphone.)

JUST AS when I decide a pops tune's "tuba" part would obviously sound better on contrabass valve trombone (so-called "cimbasso"), one of my bass trombone section buddies will occasionally play his euphonium when bass bone parts would obviously sound better played on that. Often, old Broadway medleys - whereby the word "SELECTION" appears at the top of page 1 - feature bass trombone parts which (either all or portions) sound better played on euphonium (as one set of examples). oh yeah: His euphonium is fully chromatic...but those sorts of parts don't seem to feature any C's or B's.

bloke "I played a really loud euphonium low C, yesterday. (Easter Hymn chart pictured in another thread)"

[bone-a-phone]

... oh yeah: His euphonium is fully chromatic...but those sorts of parts don't seem to feature any C's or B's.

bloke "I played a really loud euphonium low C, yesterday. (Easter Hymn chart pictured in another thread)"

Which brings up another topic which is not really on the topic of the thread - do you claim your Sinfonico has a better low range than most euphs? I've got a Festivo, and it has a nice low range, but you talk about your secret weapon as if it is somehow better equipped to play low notes. Am I getting that right? Can you elaborate on that at all?

[bloke]

... oh yeah: His euphonium is fully chromatic...but those sorts of parts don't seem to feature any C's or B's.

bloke "I played a really loud euphonium low C, yesterday. (Easter Hymn chart pictured in another thread)"

Which brings up another topic which is not really on the topic of the thread - do you claim your Sinfonico has a better low range than most euphs? I've got a Festivo, and it has a nice low range, but you talk about your secret weapon as if it is somehow better equipped to play low notes. Am I getting that right? Can you elaborate on that at all?

...??
I don't own any Jinbao instruments.
Mine is a STENCIL brand and older (yet new/old stock) version of this instrument:
(I have never met Matt Tropman...Again: I'm just blue collar, I play gigs, and don't do much hobnobbing with very many of my betters.)
https://www.wwbw.com/Meinl-Weston-751-P ... 64573.wwbw

Here's the picture from the other thread...
It's probably the largest compensating euphonium there is (though I haven't compared it - side-by-side - to the Miraphone 5050).
The low range is "great" with a regular euphonium mouthpiece, and absolutely "atomic" with the Doug Elliott contrabass trombone mouthpiece.
(Contrabass trombone mouthpieces - with "regular" bass trombones - are ALSO useful when certain bass trombone parts need to be absolutely "over-the-top".) ...For (at least for an old tuba player) "screamin' high euphonium playing, I have an old-but-good Yamaha YEP-321 (played with a regular - not "D" - Schilke 51...ex: I used the Yamaha 321 and the 51 when I had to leave the "tuba" part un-played and cover the "tenor" tuba part in "Mars".)



OK: "contrabass trombone mouthpiece used with a REGULAR bass trombone":
My buddy used one to play THIS Symphony, last month...

https://www.facebook.com/eduarbone/vide ... 7988399428

He played that cobbled-together 1970's Miraphone bass trombone (copy of a Conn 72H) with NEW Conn-Selmer outside slide tubes, a WHOLE bunch of other repairs (LOL...because he picked it up off of eBay for only $300), and - eventually - this Jinbao inline rotor "transplant" - whereby it's his only two-rotor bass trombone:

(I did the "transplant" in a ridiculous hurry one day (two hours) before a first rehearsal of a pops concert, and - a few months later - I went back, straightened out stuff, and added braces. I COULD brace it up better YET, except for the fact that he won't let me remove the cross-brace from the main tuning slide...so whatev'...It is what it is. Everything works, it sounds great, and it's got a great slide.)

He stuck HIS initials on there (one of them being a makeshift upside-down "W") to make fun of ME putting MY initials on MY instruments (as an easy identifier, as the "air-tag on the instrument" thing really hasn't been worked out).

[bone-a-phone]

Guess I misread something. MW 751. Interesting.

[bloke]

Guess I misread something. MW 751. Interesting.

It's one of the older versions and it's a stencil brand, but if you read past the rigmarole, the specs are all the same. There are some mechanical flaws in these models. One of them is that the number three compensating circuit is a full 4 inches too short, but I fixed that on mine pretty easily (thank-you, Christian Niedermayer, for selling me the tubing), and another thing that most people don't understand about these is that their tuning slide circuits all require considerable pull to play at pitch, where is most brands are set up so as the slides are pushed most of the way in for good pitch.

With the number three compensating loop lengthened, the main tuning slide shortened just a bit to offer just a little bit of pull (particularly of cold) for 440 tuning, and those slides all pulled out to where they need to go, it's pretty easy to steer, unlike the reputation they earned from people who didn't understand them. The only alternates I use are third valve for the two lower G naturals and of course the upper E flat tends sharp, which I temper when needed by adding third valve. The E flat up above the staff is quite true, and on that job I was enjoying playing some really loud and fairly highly voiced E-flat major chords with the other brass with that above the staff E flat being the bottom pitch of those chords.
I have to believe that with most brass players, making really nice chords that really ring true is just about as fun as anything.
I'm scheduled to play "Pictures" NEXT year, and - even though it's way off in the future - I couldn't help pulling out this instrument and the Yamaha and bouncing back and forth between them. I would prefer to play it on the Yamaha (clarity/projection/etc.), but my tuner is telling me that it's easier to play that solo in tune on this huge instrument.
I'm not going to reveal what I paid for this instrument (and nor am I going to reveal what I paid for the model 2900 which I previously owned). Rest assured - just like my friend with the Conn and Miraphone bass trombones - I'm a bottom feeder.