Orchestral "Presence"

[Tubajug]

Hello,

As some of you might know, I'm playing with a community orchestra again after a few years off. The group has grown to 90 musicians since I last played with them and I'm feeling like my King 2341 doesn't have the same "presence" it did the last time I played with them. I feel like I really have to push to be heard. Now, it could be that everyone just plays too loud (as is sometimes the case in community groups).

HERE are the recordings from our final concert last month. I'm curious to hear your input. Can you hear me ok when it's not FFF and I'm deliberately trying to fill the horn to match? I have no idea what was used to record the group, so it could be that as well.

I've got the parts around to build a bigger bell, bigger bore horn (probably in CC, just for kicks, and to see if I can). I will build the horn eventually, but thought it might help me pack some more "punch" in this group, as they really liked it when I brought a Yamaha YCB-822 I was helping a friend sell.

I hope you enjoy the recordings, anyway. Happy Wednesday!

[bloke]

I'm going to assume you're not simply seeking praise and are really seeking feedback.

It depends on the hall, the mic placement, and the mic quality.

The tuba is never going to be as loud in a live recording as it is in a Hollywood sound studio recording.

I have a sort-like King 2341 (the 32"-tall Holton with the same size bottom bow as King, smaller bows down from there, a 19" bell, and the same bore size as King). It's slightly punchier than a King (which can end up being a "fake-louder" effect), but I believe the tuba you've got is doing the job just fine.

The only other thing you can possibly do is to look at the dynamic markings in the context of the texture.
> Pianissimo is pointless if it can't be heard at all.
> Fortissimo ruins everything if it's an excuse to make terse noises that are obviously too loud.

...If you decide you want another tuba, there are plenty of people eager to take your money...certainly the Jinbao sellers are always very enthusiastic.

[Tubajug]

The YCB-822 and the King 2341 are kinda the same size, but the 822 might be a bit brighter and or have a bit more ‘front’ to the sound that gets back to you a bit better. Also, that 822 bell is probably closer to your ear and probably points in a slightly different direction which gets back to you better.

All that being said, you’d probably have more fun with a bigger tuba while playing with a group of 90 in that you don’t usually have to work as hard.

[peterbas]

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[Tubajug]

Not seeking praise, just feedback. Thanks! I obviously know where I'm playing in these recordings, but was curious to see if others can hear me (or not) where they think is appropriate while not knowing my part or the score. I might also be looking for an excuse to get/build a bigger tuba. Not that we need an excuse!

[bloke]

I've heard pops concert and classical concert outtakes where I was laying it down, and - in the recording - it was just (well...) "there".

I suspect that's why (sometimes...and particularly in orchestras) when we feel like we're peelin' paint, out music directors are just nonchalant.

Sometimes, you really don't want all that much "presence".

Yes - when you have a bunch of individual lines - you want them heard, but not to stick out.

This "tuba" part was (most likely) originally played on a serpent.

All of the other instruments (in the early 1820's) were much softer, so my "soft" is louder than a "soft" serpent" and my "loud" is louder than a serpent's "loud", but I'm not interested in "sticking out"...

...ie: "HEY Y'ALL TUBA PLAYERS OUT THERE IN THE HALL...I BET YOU WISH YOU WERE PLAYIN' THIS HERE TUNE !!! CHECK OUT HOW BOISTERIOUSLY I CAN PLAY THIS HERE OVERTURE !!! I'M FRIGGIN' KILLIN' IT, AIN'T I ?!?!?"

[Pauvog1]

Sounds like a fun group. Ultimately, the recording is going to depend on microphone quality/placement, room quality, and mixing (or not) to compensate for the difference to get the real concert sound.

I think you should go with your gut, and gauge that on director feedback. I've known a few folks where their situation sucked up all the 6/4 sound and others where a 4/4 pointed through (and everyone opposite and in-between too).

[tubanh84]

I've never felt "undersized" with a 4/4 in any group I've played in. You can't always hear yourself the way the room does, and the recording isn't going to be representative of what it sounded like in the room. I've also played an older 2341 in a group for fun for a rehearsal of Tchaik 4 where I normally played a PT6 and was surprised at how clear and present it felt to me. And I received no complaints from the conductor or in the hall about suddenly disappearing.

I did another concert with the same group in the same hall with my PT6, but sitting in a different formation, and the conductor kept asking for more until it got ridiculous from my point of view. I realized my bell was pointing off stage into the wing, behind a wall. I quickly re-oriented my position and immediately got The Hand. Once my bell was pointing into the shell and not behind it, anything above mp got The Hand.

All that to say, there is a lot that can contribute to presence, but a 2341 should be every bit big enough to carry most orchestras.

[Wally]

Sorry, no particular advice. Just wanna say I love your cats!

[Tubajug]

Sorry, no particular advice. Just wanna say I love your cats!

Thanks! They're super sweet. They mostly run away when they see me getting ready to play a tuba, but if it's just sitting there, they always come check it out.

Just a note about my 2341, I don't know that it makes a huge difference, but in case you didn't see my signature, I put a Holton Monster Eb bell and bottom bow on a detachable bell 2341, so it looks more like the "squat" modern version.

[bloke]

This was an under-rehearsed performance of Concerto for Orchestra. Mrs. bloke sat up in the mezzanine with my iPhone 5 and turned it on every time it looked like I was getting ready to play the tuba. This was right after I finished my Holton project - which is very similar to yours, and was chomping at the bit to play it...anywhere. This scheduled subscription concert came up next, so here I was playing it. I think tubas of that size (particularly B-flats) are capable of projecting better than some other larger tubas.

[Stryk]

Bloke is right - live recordings usually don't pick it up well. I play in a church orchestra that is on TV every week. I can't hear myself on most of the recordings, but I'm assured by people I trust that I am being heard well in the sanctuary. Even if the group is miked and mixed for a venue, it still has to be remixed for a good recording. Ours just feeds through as mixed for the sanctuary which doesn't translate to the real sound.

[bloke]

Tubas that inherently offer more "fist" in their sonority (as demonstrated with the "Concerto for Orchestra" outtakes) seem to be easier for microphones to "hear" (more high overtones, yes?)

The F tuba thing that I posted (Mendelssohn - where I was sort-of trying to be a horn/woodwind type of instrument) was easily heard (though not as much "fist" as the B-flat used in the Bartok) for some of the same reasons...more highs in the sonority.

The fact that you (yes?) don't believe that you're hearing enough of yourself in recordings (as Terry and I both suggested) may be related to acoustics/mic placement...or maybe (??) you could actually "play out" more than you have been (yet...) with it still not being "too much tuba".

We all use our own ears/taste/etc...but it's been quite the rare event when I've been asked to play the tuba softer...and I do not consider myself to be a timid player.

[Tubajug]

Thanks for the great input, everyone. I imagine the mic has the most to do with it, but I will ask the conductor (he's a friend of mine) as well. Maybe it's the hall, too? I attended the same orchestra's final concert the year before I joined again and the tuba player (another friend of mine) was using a B&S/Karl Ziess/186-type tuba and I had some trouble hearing him too. So I guess there's a lot more to consider here than just me playing loud enough:
- mic
- the hall
- orchestra volume (90 people is a lot for a community group, yes?)

We'll see what next year brings!

[bort2.0]

I think we are talking about "projection" here -- the ability for the tuba sound to get up and out and in front of the group, and to carry well through the ensemble and audience. A very, very fine pro tuba player that I've chatted with for ~20 years has long said that some tubas (ones that look like yours, or like 4/4 York style, etc) sound great under the bell, but the sound doesn't project very well. The contrast to that would be something like a Willson 3050, which I think is almost ALL projection, and very little to experience under the bell. There's a huge middle ground in-between.

For me, for orchestra, the Miraphone 188 and the Rudy 5/4 BBb were about as good as it gets. Lots of sound, lots of projection, and no trouble being heard.

IMO, orchestras should leave the "presence" to the string basses, and the tuba should be the bass voice of the brass section. The tuba is a sometimes loud, sometimes obnoxious voice, that everyone will hear -- no, everyone MUST hear, but the ensemble doesn't sound "correct" without it. But for sheer "presence" and surrounding bass sound and floor-shake... it can sometimes be a nice effect when the tuba lends that, but it's not an outright requirement. Let the string bass do that, and let the tuba do the things that nobody else can.

[bloke]

@Tubajug

Tell your conductor friend that you're going to see about playing out a bit more, that you're going to temper it with taste/judgement, but - if too much - just let you know at the break (and whether "overall" or "particular passages" - etc.)

If you get negative feedback, just consider that as ONE opinion.
I play for some conductors/music directors whereby (obviously within limits) "the more, the better".

[Tubajug]

You bring up some good points @bort2.0. And it is probably going to involve both projection and presence as the mood, style, insert more things here, change within a piece or from piece to piece. Projection probably was a better word for what I was trying to find out overall (if you could hear me). Thanks.

Thanks again for your continued input. I enjoy hearing from so many of you.

[bloke]

"Blending" is a goal, but "getting swallowed up in the corporate sound" probably is only a sometimes-and-not-all-that-often goal.

If you could stand to listen to that (long) Mendelssohn overture, you may have noticed that - sometimes - I disappeared into the texture (ie. "OK", I'm "WITH the ______s and the ______s), and - other times - I put my part to the fore...EVEN WHEN most everything else going on - right at a particular moment - was static melodically/harmonically YET some little bass line featured in the serpent/ophicleide part - right then - is nearly attention-getting enough to function as a "hook/earworm"...even something as simple as three three long pitches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

[peterbas]

[bloke]

Thanks for the great input, everyone. I imagine the mic has the most to do with it, but I will ask the conductor (he's a friend of mine) as well. Maybe it's the hall, too? I attended the same orchestra's final concert the year before I joined again and the tuba player (another friend of mine) was using a B&S/Karl Ziess/186-type tuba and I had some trouble hearing him too. So I guess there's a lot more to consider here than just me playing loud enough:
- mic
- the hall
- orchestra volume (90 people is a lot for a community group, yes?)

We'll see what next year brings!

The recording is simply bad.
Use this to make it listenable, the easiest to use soundfx for windows.
https://www.fxsound.com/download

I downloaded it. It seems to do a little more than the old "loudness" button that we had on our amplifiers, receivers, and other devices back in the day. It's okay I suppose.