Four valve tuba question

[poomshanka]

Random question regarding four valve tubas. Would it be possible/feasible/worth it to extend the fourth valve slide to drop a perfect fifth, instead of the usual perfect fourth? Potential slide pulling issues aside, might this give a fully chromatic scale down to the pedal without false tones?

Just wonderin'...

...Dave

[LeMark]

it would have to be a long 5th to create the note a half step above the fundamental.

The other problem would be your 1-3 combinations and especially 1-2-3 would be sharp

[poomshanka]

it would have to be a long 5th to create the note a half step above the fundamental.

The other problem would be your 1-3 combinations and especially 1-2-3 would be sharp

Yeah, I figured it'd create some 1-3/1-2-3 intonation issues, plus some sort of +whole step pretzel on the 4th valve slide. As a non-torch jockey, I'm wondering if that'd be easier than adding a whole other fifth valve to the loop.

...Dave

[LeMark]

Couple things to ask here

what key of tuba? A BBb or a CC can do without a 5th valve a lot easier than an Eb or F

do you have a specific work that you are concerned about? Literally I played a 4 valve tuba for decades until I played a piece with a Low D in it, and for that I ordered enough slide tubing to extend the 4th valve, just for that one part of the piece.

[poomshanka]

Couple things to ask here

what key of tuba? A BBb or a CC can do without a 5th valve a lot easier than an Eb or F

do you have a specific work that you are concerned about? Literally I played a 4 valve tuba for decades until I played a piece with a Low D in it, and for that I ordered enough slide tubing to extend the 4th valve, just for that one part of the piece.

Mostly a hypothetical question here. Someone on the other forum had posted a question about a four valve F tuba, and it got me to thinking.

[iiipopes]

Couple things to ask here

what key of tuba? A BBb or a CC can do without a 5th valve a lot easier than an Eb or F

do you have a specific work that you are concerned about? Literally I played a 4 valve tuba for decades until I played a piece with a Low D in it, and for that I ordered enough slide tubing to extend the 4th valve, just for that one part of the piece.

Mostly a hypothetical question here. Someone on the other forum had posted a question about a four valve F tuba, and it got me to thinking.

And if you are lucky, on a standard 4-valve BBb tuba, 1(pull)+4 or 1(push)+2+4 (depending on the tuba) will get you Eb; 2+3+4 will get you D; 1(pull)+3+4 will get you Db; all four and keep pulling will get you C. Cb/Bnat is problematic but show me any piece of repertoire that has that actual pitch written, not dropped the octave by the player, and I will buy the beverages of choice. After that is true pedal BBBb, and then start over if the nodes will cooperate. Conversely, if you have good privilege tones and the nodes cooperate, open privilege is Eb, then 2nd for D, 1 for Db, 1+2 for C, experiment to get Cb/Bnat, then true pedal BBBb. That's what I did on the Conn 38K souzy I had the use of some decades ago. You couldn't tell the difference between registers because even with the "standard" .734 bore, the taper was so large it smoothed out the tonality and provided fundamental that could shake floors without pushing the dynamic.

[bloke]

To answer your question, I did a lot of customizing on my contrabass B-flat tuba much of which is outlined just below in the long post below this productory blather, but I will tell you that part of the alteration I did was to convert my fourth circuit upper number four slide to one which is as long as I could possibly manage to make it, and even pulled all the way out it doesn't lower the number four circuit even a full semitone, so having a way to have one slide in the fourth circuit pull out to a whole tone is something that's just not feasible. I'm not even sure if I could pull all three of my number four circuit slides out enough to achieve a quint valve, and almost no one has a tuba with a fourth circuit with three slides in it, as does mine.
Below, I'll outline some of the adventures I went through with mine which was already a tuba that offered really nice intonation, but it will show you some of the things that I did to dial it in so as I could sit calmly and play it and keep my right hand on the valves and keep my left hand on the number one slide all the time:

My model of B-flat is (possibly) unique (well...a did all sorts of customizing, but...) the 3rd slide is on the back - whereby I spring-loaded it and put an upper extension on it whereby my left wrist (not "hand") can push it in for the (very commonly flat) 4th partial 2-3 pitch while keeping my left HAND on the first valve slide.

I very much dislike reaching way over "there" (even though my rotary tuba was factory-built to offer an upper #4 slide in the same place as with York-style valve section piston models) to the #4 slide...I might as well be reaching for Mars.

My 4th valve C is considerably flatter (same slide position) compared to my 4th valve low F, so I have chosen to play C 1-3 (pull the #1 slide nearly as far out as possible for that C)...and that partial being flat, the 2-4 B is darn nice (tuning, and pulling/pushing nothing), but I rely on 5-2-3 for low E (which would be stinky-sharp with 2-4...and (again) I do NOT like reaching "way over there" to screw around with the 4th slide. (Brass instruments are mostly 3-valve instruments, with 4, 5, 6 being there for certain low pitches and not to frantically be reaching to yank on those auxiliary valves' slides.)

summary:
My left hand stays in ONE place ALL the time, as does my #4 slide.

bloke "got it all worked out, whereby any bad intonation is the fault of bloke, and not the fault of the length of the tuba...and - again - no frantic movements"

[Mary Ann]

Off topic but it still makes me smile: "Frantic movements."
In a rehearsal in the brass band a while back, the 1st slide from the Yam 822 next to me came flying through the air, pinged on something along the way, and landed on the floor between us. He pulled a bit too fast and apparently lost his grip. No dent, but he was embarrassed. He is a FINE player.
End wandering off topic.

[donn]

In my antique tuning perspective, wherein the 3rd and 4th valves are to be tuned flat and used only in combination with others ...

With 4th valve a 5th, I think I'd pull it out to make Eb as flat as I could stand it., and then D 2-4 would be only somewhat sharp. As E 1-2-3 would be sharp. Db 1-2-4 would be flat, C 2-3-4 would be pretty good, B 1-2-3-4 would be flat. I don't think it would be a lot of fun to play, but you get B and C.

With the normal 4th (pulled a good ways of course), B is out of reach, C 1-2-3-4 is sharp, and Db 1-3-4 is flat.