No hires

[kingrob76]

While I don't generally prescribe to this theory, I wonder how many of the "no hires" are because the candidate(s) at the top simply make no representation of DEI hiring practices. I see this in practice more in the arts community than I do anywhere else, in my experience.

[Mary Ann]

When the Boston Symphony was holding auditions to replace the retiring Doug Yeo, I attended a master class Yeo was teaching. He talked about the current auditions for Boston and said, you will not be compared to the other auditionees. You will be compared to me, the bass trombonist they have heard for the last 27 years.

I think there is a lot of truth in this one -- to the point if someone were an aspiring auditionee, they would be well advised to study the playing of the person they are hoping to replace. Basically nobody wants someone new coming in and causing a disruption, however mild, in how the group sounds.

And -- to another commenter, I'm pretty sure that Carol Jantsch was not a diversity hire. Many years ago she would not even have had the chance to audition on tuba.

[kingrob76]

Carol wins that job if it’s completely blind and anonymous, she’s that good. I was thinking more about the mid-level MD’s and their need to guide the “soul” of an ensemble. I know several groups that include “underrepresented” composers on every program. I am fine with that, but it’s not a long walk to apply that to personnel, especially with multiple qualified candidates. It goes both ways, perhaps an MD is anti-DEI and goes the other way.

[bloke]

I've heard Carol play solo stuff and I've heard a couple of the other finalists who auditioned for that job play solo stuff. I've never spoken to her, and I seriously doubt that she has any idea who I am, but based on what I've heard of her playing and a couple of other finalists' playing, hiring her was an easy choice. The fact that she was young lady - who would be written about in newspapers and provide the orchestra with additional publicity.. that was a bonus.

The other stuff brought up:
I steer clear of those topics. No matter where someone steps in regards to those things, there are landmines.

[Leohorn41]

It is a thing also in Europe. Every orchestra is waiting for the candidate that they want instead of the best one that shows up. If you hold an audition and the level such and dont pick, then you hold another and the same situation, and it is the 4th time you are doing this, the problem are not the candidates the problem is the orchestra. There is a particular orchestra i think of, that in the last 4 or so years has hold an audition for a principal player like 3 or 4 times and they have chosen no one. At the same time good players of the orchestra in the wind section and strings are leaving and also over that period of time 4 concermasters that have hold the position winning the audition and passing trail periods have left after a year or so. The word spread and the less and less people come to audition and regular subs don't feel any confortable going anymore because most of time they aren't invited to audition for the position they cover or have have covered on regular bases on the path. So, from a company point of view, seeing good people leaving, no many people applying for the job, leading players moving on somewhere else and the voice spreading on don't loose your time there, it is not good. Looks like leaving the sinking boat before the catastofre.

[MiBrassFS]

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[UncleBeer]

Europeans excel in self-regard. There, I said it. I know this from personal experience.

[bloke]

"No hire" can occur for reasons beyond the control of committees or even music directors...

...sometimes goofy reasons that have nothing to do with personalities, favorites, or playing prowess.

[Mary Ann]

I've been watching a no hire situation for a couple years in Tucson Symphony, and know one of the candidates. It is interesting to watch, and to get the inside story.

[Paulver]

Happened to stumble on to my own old post this morning. As a followup to it, I have a brief story that has just taken place in the last day or two. I hope I have the details correct, and while taking a few shortcuts to make the story less boring, I hope I don't misrepresent anything.

A friend of my daughter's had been auditioning for about three years around the country. No success and no job, and a number of no hires........until recently. Earlier this year, while in grad school, he won the Kansas City principle trumpet job. Good for him! Has subbed there since, waiting to take over his new position this fall. Yesterday, I was informed that he just won the 2nd trumpet job in the Met Orchestra.... NYC. Hasn't even filled the position he was originally hired for yet, in KC.

When I stated in my original posts that these kids are outrageously good, I wasn't exaggerating. So, the questions in my mind still remain...... What's going on with these other "much lesser" orchestras around the country? What are they thinking? Who do they THINK they are? This kid tried and tried for lesser orchestras, and no remotely good results...... other than a couple of advancements to the second round. Then, he decides to shoot for the moon! This kid was a tremendous talent in undergrad....... but in all honesty....... I would have to assume, possibly a bit better as a result of more instruction. But, to land in the Met Orchestra, there had to be an extremely high level of talent and ability, prior.

What are these regional and smaller city/area orchestras trying to prove? Each one that he auditioned for passed on him, and in some cases, everyone else who auditioned. Look that they passed on!!!

I know that some will jump on the grad school part making a huge improvement in his playing, but, as I stated above, this kid was great in undergrad.
Mind boggling!

[russiantuba]

Another thing is the tenure process:

A horn colleague, who is one of the strongest horn players I have worked with, announced he didn’t get tenure at an orchestra. Not sure which regional one (not sure if it was the one I played with him at), but this is becoming more and more frequent.

[bloke]

The smaller orchestras' boards and directors - sometimes-if-not-often, I suspect - are reacting to supply and demand whereas they're never going to get the MOST astonishing players, but they are still going to get astonishing players (again, just not the MOST astonishing). I've already brought to light the fact that conservatories and conservatory-level universities' music departments/schools are producing many multiples of absolutely qualified candidates for every available job (irresponsibly - imo, at the cost of lifetime debt shouldered by the naive students, as well as American taxpayers - who are constantly abused in endless ways), and the orchestras' boards and directors - where "talent" are paid from $5,000 to $10,000 a year - (and don't fool yourself) completely know that all of these potential upgrades to their orchestras are out there...and - whether we want to think they have tin ears or not - yes, they can hear the difference.
I played a pops concert whereby it was sports themed, and the John Williams' "Summon the Heroes" fanfare (which is quite long, features a damned challenging fourth trombone part - which I covered on cimbasso, which is actually what prompted me to create a real/honest-to-goodness cimbasso mouthpiece for tuba players - and features quite a long trumpet solo) was one of the pieces performed. That orchestra only paid something underneath $4,000 a year at that time. That having been said, I've never heard a better rendition of that trumpet solo, including the one on YouTube done by the Boston Pops with Williams himself conducting.

Europe may (I have no idea about Europe and it's musicians...??) well be flooded with superb "classical" musicians - a large percentage of whom play for "the love of it", but absolutely the United States is flooded with such musicians, and with nowhere close to the interest in hearing it (with even low-cost and free admission wonderful concerts often sparsely attended) as there is an interest in performing it.
As far as "tenure" in an orchestra is concerned, one of my freeway philharmonics just experienced a "cleansing" - whereby everyone in the orchestra had to re-audition, this year. Sadly, I'm afraid I'm going to be seeing a whole bunch of new faces, and I guess I'll decide what I think about that after having heard them. Supposedly, the "cleansing" thing (a term I made up) will result in "tenure" (significantly higher pay and more generous other considerations already being part of the formula), but - as someone who (when our store was brick and mortar) formerly was an employer - I've always wondered why tenure doesn't work both ways: ie. Why should an employer agree to make it more difficult for themselves to fire an employee, when the employee isn't - in exchange - required to agree to stay for a certain number of years? (as replacing employees who suddenly leave is always such a pain)...tenure-schmenure
I live in possibly one of the lowest cost of living areas in the country, am delighted to be here, and I'm fine with those who view this area as an "armpit" continuing to view it that way. That having been said, there are probably even fewer classical/jazz/quintet/polka/church gigs in this part of the country than and some of the jam-packed population northern areas (LOL... with the market for F tuba solos - as always - being 100% synthetic). I'm probably only pulling in about $10,000 a year playing music on the tuba, but I tend to suspect that the $10,000 that I pull in has the same buying power as $20,000 in some of those jam-packed population northern areas... and I'm not really aggressive at all about putting myself out there for work. I really only respond to telephone, texts, emails and messages, and don't promote myself in any way whatsoever (certainly no "bloke, tubaist" so-called artist page on Facebook). As a (mostly) freelance musician (and I'm not sure that the orchestras that hire me would be considered "steady employment", even though they steadily hire me), I used to make two or three times as many dollars around this same part of the country playing live and recording music - with dollars back then being worth two or three times as much, but I'm not so sure that - at my age - I'm particularly interested in being away from home all the time, and I'm just as happy out in my shop straightening out people's messes that they've made with their instruments (not having to worry that I might be returning to a car with a broken window, a missing tuba, or no car at all...etc.)

[Mary Ann]

I think there is a double factor going on in a lot of the regional orchestras. If they hire some hotshot, that person is not likely to stay long, and if they hire someone not quite as good as they want and they stay, they are then stuck with that person. I do know of Tucson Symphony, a few decades ago, letting go a 3rd trumpet for musical incompetence. Union squabble and all of it, but he was let go. And it is very common here that a local person will get the job if they are good enough, because it is assumed they will not take off for greener pastures in a year or two.