"winning" a job

[bloke]

studies/peer-reviewed/certified/expert/consultant/degree-in...



A friend of mine

(admittedly a self-educated genius who had just retired - prolly earning $300K or more annually)

who was testifying regarding his corporation (actually, a public utility) being cheated out of millions by another corporation (also a public utility), and cross-examined by the cheating corporation's lawyer...

I see, Mr. X, that you have no degree in law, and not even a degree or any formal training in the power generation industry. What makes you believe that you are able to read and interpret this contract, interpret it correctly, and offer any credible testimony regarding any of it?

Well you see sir, I was trained - in elementary and secondary school - that written communication is made of of letters, words, sentences, paragraphs, and - sometimes - even chapters, or other topical divisions. Once the proper interpretations of these things are mastered, it's actually possible to read written instruments for content, and understand their meanings.

...to which those in the courtroom let out uncontrolled laughter - at the great exasperation and irritation of that defense lawyer.

bloke "true, btw...and he and I matriculated the same poor-trash schools...and I'm not saying that any/all of these are humbug, but I do grow weary of elitist peeps on the internet using the LACK of any of these as 'you can't possibly know anything' types of argumentative attacks. When someone asks, me 'what I referenced' - as one of these typical attacks - I will report to them that I referenced 'my incredible powers of reason'. With ANY concept/idea/observations, SOMEONE had to have come up with it FIRST...so why not you or me?"

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

The folding of the San Antonio Symphony (and rebirth as San Antonio Philharmonic) is an excellent example of LOCAL issues, not national issues. We simply do not have enough data to reasonably assert that the circumstances surrounding the folding of SAS is a nation-wide issue at this time. The fact that SAS has (so far) successfully reformed as the SA Phil suggests the problems SAS was facing were not insurmountable.

Bloke has consistently pushed the idea that orchestras are a dying industry and there is no way to save them. I disagree with the idea, and I disagree with the notion that we should be encouraging other musicians to adopt this pessimistic mindset. When the problem is perceived as a national problem, it is far too easy to it be considered insurmountable. When the problem is perceived as a local problem, then imperfect orchestras run by imperfect staff and musicians can diagnose smaller, local problems and efficiencies and actually make change.

Sometimes they'll fail anyways, but sometimes they won't.

Colby, how many ICSOM orchestras or even full time ROPAs have had strikes, pay cuts, and cuts to number of services to a season in the last 20 years, the time we have been active in this?

I can tell you Columbus and Louisville are shadows of their former self. I believe Pittsburgh settled on a pay cut. Fort Wayne, Minnesota, and Fort Worth had issues in my recent recollection. Didn’t Baltimore have issues as well?

I’d actually like someone with time to research a list of orchestra strikes or issues with contracts that have cancelled performances of the less than 50 (45?) full time orchestras in the country.

Those are great questions, and exactly the kind of information that I think someone trying to make incredibly generalized statements about an entire field would ask. Some additional questions worth asking:

- How many orchestras have experienced pay increases and how have they experienced it (such as through lower base rate but more services, etc)
- How did those strikes resolve? With pay increases or pay cuts? What concessions were made?
- Were those orchestras over-paying their musicians? (hard one to define, for sure)
- How has donations and ticket sale income changed? How have orchestra's budget distributions changed?

There's a lot of great questions to ask and data to gather if you're interested in having an informed option, but "number of strikes" by itself is an incomplete metric and lacks context.

Very little of that changes how we can look at our local orchestras

[bloke]

The few participating in this thread are (yes?) earning less than a handful of thousands of dollars annually (per orchestra, if multiples) doing this stuff, so there's really no point in pretending as though these are actual "jobs".

The thing to do is to PRIMARILY engage in doing things really well that people actually need and demand (rather than trying to "talk people into" believing that they need to consume what we do...or demanding the the government pay for "educating" the public to our specific advantage, as well as subsidize our paychecks).

My daughter has a degree in performance from Eastman (from one of the world-renowned teachers...There isn't a serious oboist who doesn't either know Dick Killmer or knows of him), a performer certificate and a masters degree from SMU (there: having studied with the DSO principal player, Erin Hannigan - who's another Killmer protégé).

She's doing paperwork one day a week with the family business (Houghton Horns), but her MAIN income is derived from CLEANING HOUSES within a couple of blocks of her own house. People pay BIG money for stuff that they ACTUALLY need done, and PARTICULARLY if it's done REALLY WELL...
...and she's fast. She still has our three grandkids in the house, so she's only working a few hours each day, has days off on particular days on alternate weeks, and never works on Saturdays or Sundays. (btw...This is a real business that she has set up, and with all the proper background checks and insurance in place.)

btw...She's really proud of the superb/thorough jobs she does, and the speed at which she does them. It's also rewarding to her to have her customers tell her things such as "I don't know if you're aware of this, but you've absolutely changed our lives, and completely reversed our formerly-suffering emotional states"...you know: some of the same types of things that (every once in a while) are said to performing musicians.

WERE IT THAT she was regularly doing as much playing as little as we do (and she does play oboe gigs), she still would have PLENTY of time to practice (and - can we talk? - oboists practicing orchestral oboe parts compared to tuba players practicing orchestral tuba parts requires a hell of a lot more diligence, in addition to the reed-making), rehearse, and perform with a "freeway philharmonic" type of orchestra...or two (the type in which those of us - posting in this thread - participate).

numbers:
$30,000 (presented as) "full-time" jobs (today) are the buying-power equivalent of $3000 (back then: labeled "part-time") jobs when I was growing up, and beginning to master playing instruments. Typically (again: "back then") if ten subscription concerts (mixture of classical and pops) the "$3000" type of gig might have paid c. $65/service. Adjusted for inflation, that's a helluva lot more than services pay these days. (Check it on an inflation calculator from the mid-1960's to this year.)

summary:
Money is how we show each other - in a very concrete way - how important others' services (regardless of what types of skills) are to us. Based on how much musicians are paid these days (and particularly compared to what musicians were paid in the past) they are just not very important to those who pay them. We can be angry and frustrated that what we do is not important to others, or we can face the reality of it and either go forward with it anyway or move on.

[russiantuba]

Those are great questions, and exactly the kind of information that I think someone trying to make incredibly generalized statements about an entire field would ask. Some additional questions worth asking:

- How many orchestras have experienced pay increases and how have they experienced it (such as through lower base rate but more services, etc)
- How did those strikes resolve? With pay increases or pay cuts? What concessions were made?
- Were those orchestras over-paying their musicians? (hard one to define, for sure)
- How has donations and ticket sale income changed? How have orchestra's budget distributions changed?

There's a lot of great questions to ask and data to gather if you're interested in having an informed option, but "number of strikes" by itself is an incomplete metric and lacks context.

Very little of that changes how we can look at our local orchestras

A group isn’t going to strike unless there are issues, either regarding conditions and/or pay. How many orchestras have would be a solid metric to show financial stability and viability in the field.

Pay increases are actually very hard to calculate because most of the time, (not going political but have to somewhat), inflation outpaces the wage growth. So if inflation is 3% a year (supposedly), if they end up getting a wage increase of 5% at the end of a contract for 3-5 years, that 5% is actually a pay cut.

Ticket sales cover very little of the orchestra income. Many orchestras don’t own their hall (ones that do, such as LAPO, seem to do good). Ticket sales often break even the cost of the hall, if they even do that.

Something else I want you to consider. How many of your general public knows which orchestras are full time and “per service”? I have a friend who did a little music in college so understands, went to hear Houston Symphony and asked me about orchestral careers. She had no idea that some were full time, some were per service and the musicians do other things to make a living, and the variance of pay between orchestras.

Even around me, some people wouldn’t know the difference between XYZ Suburb Symphony and ABC Control City Symphony. So, when people/companies donate for the ad space or recognition, they might do local.

I would make the claim that American full time orchestras are dying. I wouldn’t say orchestral music is, though many groups are shifting to pops style concerts to entertain the public. I believe orchestral excerpts should reflect these changes

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Those are great questions, and exactly the kind of information that I think someone trying to make incredibly generalized statements about an entire field would ask. Some additional questions worth asking:

- How many orchestras have experienced pay increases and how have they experienced it (such as through lower base rate but more services, etc)
- How did those strikes resolve? With pay increases or pay cuts? What concessions were made?
- Were those orchestras over-paying their musicians? (hard one to define, for sure)
- How has donations and ticket sale income changed? How have orchestra's budget distributions changed?

There's a lot of great questions to ask and data to gather if you're interested in having an informed option, but "number of strikes" by itself is an incomplete metric and lacks context.

Very little of that changes how we can look at our local orchestras

A group isn’t going to strike unless there are issues, either regarding conditions and/or pay. How many orchestras have would be a solid metric to show financial stability and viability in the field.

Pay increases are actually very hard to calculate because most of the time, (not going political but have to somewhat), inflation outpaces the wage growth. So if inflation is 3% a year (supposedly), if they end up getting a wage increase of 5% at the end of a contract for 3-5 years, that 5% is actually a pay cut.

Ticket sales cover very little of the orchestra income. Many orchestras don’t own their hall (ones that do, such as LAPO, seem to do good). Ticket sales often break even the cost of the hall, if they even do that.

Something else I want you to consider. How many of your general public knows which orchestras are full time and “per service”? I have a friend who did a little music in college so understands, went to hear Houston Symphony and asked me about orchestral careers. She had no idea that some were full time, some were per service and the musicians do other things to make a living, and the variance of pay between orchestras.

Even around me, some people wouldn’t know the difference between XYZ Suburb Symphony and ABC Control City Symphony. So, when people/companies donate for the ad space or recognition, they might do local.

I would make the claim that American full time orchestras are dying. I wouldn’t say orchestral music is, though many groups are shifting to pops style concerts to entertain the public. I believe orchestral excerpts should reflect these changes

Obviously, a group isn't going to strike unless there are issues, but the value of "number of strikes" depends upon the issues at hand and how the strike resolves. It's a starting point for gathering information, not the sole metric to draw conclusions. I think it is a bit of jump to go from "orchestras are striking" to "the nation wide profession is dying" without additional context over time.

I also said that pay increases over time would be difficult to calculate, which is exactly why I think Bloke has over-simplified this situation.

Are you suggesting we just ignore ticket sales? Because I was NOT suggesting that we use it as a sole metric to draw conclusions from, but one of many revenue streams. Part of the question is: how do we define the success of an orchestra? A portion of that may be reaching certain attendance thresholds, or it may be reaching fewer, but wealthier individuals.

I'm not sure how your comment on general public awareness of "full time vs per service" is relevant to this conversation.

Again, I am pushing against Bloke's claim without supporting data that orchestras are dying and that there is simply nothing that anyone can do about it anywhere. It's entirely possible that what he has described is happening some places but not necessarily everywhere. Nor is it necessarily an inevitable outcome.

[bloke]

@russiantuba

I believe the availability of unwisely-offered students loans (for unwisely-chosen majors at crazy-expensive schools) and some other factors (such as beaming-with-pride parents - who surrender significant portions of their life savings to underwrite conservatory matriculation) have caused a severe market glut.

Even when I go play in an orchestra in Tupelo, Mississippi (and yes, all but very few live in Mississippi with just a few living in Alabama - as that state's border is less than fifty miles from Tupelo) it sounds like a fully conservatory-trained orchestra (as that's just what it is).

The brass may not quite sound like Pittsburgh, and the strings may not quite sound like Berlin, but (well...) VERY good, so we really can't expect boards and E.D.s to "understand" why they should pay a nickel more than what they're paying, as we're (the collective "we're") actually (and whether-or-not we realize this) encouraging them to pay us less.

OK...(not Mahler 2, but...) check them out here...as well as the three community college choirs tossed together (one rehearsal).

[Mary Ann]

I once explained to a friend that the purpose of getting a university instrumental teaching job was to train other people to also not be able to make a living playing their instrument unless they got a teaching job.

[bloke]

I once explained to a friend that the purpose of getting a university instrumental teaching job was to train other people to also not be able to make a living playing their instrument unless they got a teaching job.

It seems to me that the United States of America might need one bullwhip-making apprenticeship every five to ten years (extreme analogy),
yet, with tuba playing, we have several (not just single apprenticeships, but "studios") even within some of our least populated states, and with taxpayers (mostly) covering the cost of these.

...but bloke, this is America - where everyone should be able to strive to be whatever they want to be !!!

ok...but NOT at everyone's else expense, and no matter the folly of the pursuit.

...but it does stimulate the (Chinese) economy, with all of the sales of "C tubas for college".

[russiantuba]

I'm not sure how your comment on general public awareness of "full time vs per service" is relevant to this conversation.

When people or businesses donate, it would make sense to them to donate to the local arts organization for advertisement or name prestige. So, if a group donates a fortune to a local community orchestra that doesn't pay, or one that has limited services, yes it helps that orchestra grow, but in a way, it detracts from the full time groups. The ICSOM orchestra an hour from my house at one point in my lifetime was a 50 week a year orchestra (52 I think with 3 performances on many programs). Now, it sits with a rotating "per service" string section who you will see in some of the suburb orchestras. Not saying this is a bad thing for the overall community, but a sense of a dying full-time orchestra. Part of the general public awareness would help in sponsoring full time orchestras. But, I guess having a suburb community with their own orchestra can help prestige and home values...

I can name several full time orchestras where there have been open seats in the brass, filled in by a sub, in order to save money. Cincinnati Symphony did this for a decade.

Colby, you also mentioned the success of an orchestra being hard to define and to define if it was dying. Lets use a 40 year benchmark. How many orchestras have had weeks to the contracted season cut, overall number of full time positions cut, and total performances cut?

[bloke]

I don't really see how full-time or per service could NOT have a bearing on any discussions of orchestras, orchestra jobs, orchestra pay and the prestige of an orchestra, in regards to how it's viewed by the community.

There's an orchestra not far from me that calls itself full-time, but it doesn't pay a living wage in my opinion, and it's only 35 of the people that get that salary. Several vacated seats of those 35 have been filled by "permanent substitutes".

It's almost as if there's one person here - were it a verbal discussion - who has a television turned up too loud or something. Maybe the words of other people's texts come out all jumbled up compared to how they submitted them...

I would just like to point out that my last few threads that I've started been about playing the tuba and practicing playing the tuba, and I've started a couple of recent threads about instruments. To be so interested in "the business of orchestras"...it's just really not very interesting. It's not that it's exclusively not interesting to me, but it's just not interesting because it's not very promising, and those who are interested in consuming this industry's product are becoming less and less interested in consuming it.

As an example, about the only time we play to packed and sold out houses is when we are hired to do those video game music concerts, yes? I'm pretty sure those concerts actually make a profit.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

I'm not sure how your comment on general public awareness of "full time vs per service" is relevant to this conversation.

Colby, you also mentioned the success of an orchestra being hard to define and to define if it was dying. Lets use a 40 year benchmark. How many orchestras have had weeks to the contracted season cut, overall number of full time positions cut, and total performances cut?

And with that data alone, over a 40 year period, we can say with certainty whether the entire orchestra field is dying? Even if ticket sales are up, subscribers are up, quantity/value of donations is up, number of services are up, number of pieces performed is up, styles of music performed is broader, types of audiences reached is broader, and reported audience satisfaction is up?

Even with all of that data available, it would still be difficult to make that assessment for an individual orchestra, let alone for the entire field. So again, I would rather not make assumptions based on ignorance or, at best, anecdotal evidence from conversation with acquaintances.

[MiBrassFS]

In this area, the big orchestra cut pay/benefits (from over $100k to just under $90k… still good money…) and reduced orchestra size after a lengthy strike in the last contract negotiations. The management’s stated reason? Reduced corporate donations, reduced ticket subscriptions, increased costs. The public responded vocally in the media. Their response was generally pretty negative (management shared all the compensation info very and intentionally publicly to apply pressure…”they make how much!?!”). This orchestra enjoyed decades of huge corporate sponsorship. They thought that would never end because of the environment here. The audience was treated as superfluous. It really didn’t matter if they showed up or not. Those driving the corporate philanthropy buses grew younger and an orchestra for old, rich people became less attractive and certainly not trendy to support is the guess.

Not being too crazy about the whole approach (and not to mention that the last time we did attended, the orchestra crashed and burned coming to a halt behind a soloist… there seemed to be a conflict with the conductor from what we heard…) we’d rather support community groups. Hopefully things have or will turn around for them.

Over the last 35 years we attended more Chicago Symphony concerts (requiring travel…) than local ones and even that came to a halt as circumstances changed.

We vote with our dollars and feel no need or obligation to perpetually support institutions of any kind that ignore their responsibilities.

[bloke]

Goof-ups in concerts are going to become more common.

One of the "trendy" things - with management - is cutting the numbers of rehearsals and acting as if paying 15% more per rehearsal is a "pay increase" (yet the rehearsal schedules often still eat up the same number of days).

Even if management actually gave a crap, they don't understand the mental concept of a "performance" - as very little of what they do is in real time, and - even if they goof up their little 5-minute annoying speech before a concert a little bit - they can correct themselves, or (if really bad) laugh it off, and continue with no consequence.

They also really don't understand (particularly with freeway philharmonics) that the handfuls of thousands of dollars of pay represent token/joke pay, the musicians' services (basically) are donations, and that - with many such musicians - it actually costs money to walk away from what they normally do (for three-or-so days each month - sometimes 3-1/2) and go do something like this. Even more importantly, they don't care...and I'm not really sure that musicians should expect them to care. Do musicians care - when their own old cars break down - they pay to get them fixed, and the mechanics hired in the shop are "only" paid blah-blah...?? (Heck no. They ONLY care that their car was repaired, and they noted that they paid a bunch of money to get it done.)

side topic:
"remembering the mistakes in classical concerts more than the music"
I believe one of the reasons that this stuff is fading in popularity is because people can no longer sit for more than a certain number of minutes, and the overwhelming majority of people cannot sit quietly for even a handful of minutes.
FURTHER...A symphony orchestra is little more than a cover band (albeit, a large/somewhat unwieldy one).
People pay to see cover bands, because the music is reminiscent (just as was symphony orchestra concerts - to those - IN THE PAST - who knew the music). Further, the finest symphony orchestras (a few in the USA and all in Europe) move around PHYSICALLY when they play their instruments (not just the concerti soloists, but all of the orchestra musicians as well). This VISUAL generates excitement and empathy of excitement in the patrons. Most American orchestra musicians just sit there ("deadpan") and play... Humans (certainly including concert patrons) are VERY visually oriented - much moreso than aurally. errors: Errors bother the patrons, because (just as with any other cover band) they don't "sound like the record".
younger and conservatory-sheltered musicians: nearly completely naive, regarding most of these truths, particularly those who possess no other marketable skills, and certainly those who've never run or owned any sort of business

[MiBrassFS]

Looks like their rates are up. They’re back up over $100,000.00.

“…has a 43-week season, including 4 weeks of paid vacation, plus Non-Work Week Stipends for the remaining nine (9) weeks. Minimum annual salary for the 2023–2024 season is $105,514.”

Considering that in this area… “as of June 2024, the median home price on single-family homes is $257,250.00” that’s not a bad ratio.

Good point. I imagine it didn’t sound like the record. ‘Cause I bet the record didn’t come to a grinding halt with someone calling out where they were gonna to start up again…

Added side note: my wife just reminded me that it was flutist Jame Galway. He stopped the group, gathered them all back together at a call letter, and conducted with his flute to start them back up. She said she remembers it as more of a conductor inflicted issue than an orchestra issue. I’m suffering from “CRS” right now, so I’ll take her word for it, as usual!

[russiantuba]

Even with all of that data available, it would still be difficult to make that assessment for an individual orchestra, let alone for the entire field. So again, I would rather not make assumptions based on ignorance or, at best, anecdotal evidence from conversation with acquaintances.

We are saying orchestras are dying, and it appears you think they are thriving, or at least you seem to want them and are in denial of the reality. This is why I suggested factual, concrete evidence to show based on a broad span of orchestras to have some metric value. We are talking about a field. Sales for a certain product might be really high in Southbend, IN, but the overall market for the same product has lost 20% in the rest of the midwest and 35% in the entire country. Does it mean it is dying? Maybe not, but the data can show this.

As a performer, I really do not focus on the audience. Audiences may not enjoy a work, numbers may be down, but you can have that one person that really enjoys it that funds the entire group, as Bloke mentioned. You are right Colby, you can't necessarily claim they are dying based on one or two things, but as groups fold and cut services, pay, and positions, it would be foolish to say they aren't dying (might be a particular one or few, but thats why I suggested showing the trends over the major groups over the past 38 years).

Some newspapers are thriving I am sure, but I would not recommend anyone go in a career in the newspaper printing industry. A local group might be selling more physical copies, but as a whole, print media is dying. Media isn't. I will say the same about orchestras. The traditional orchestras "masterworks" concept is dying. Instrumental music isn't dying.

[bloke]

I tend to wonder if orchestras are dying because those who make the decisions as to what they program (on "classical" concerts) always feel it necessary to mix in at least one piece of poop into every concert (and pieces of poop are not classics, therefore not classical). People don't like listening to poop, certainly not when they're paying to hear music. The only people that listen to poop are college kids who are trying to get enough listening credits to get through a semester... well, maybe composers of poop sit attend other composers' of poop poop-certs, so that they will furnish audiences for each other.

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Even with all of that data available, it would still be difficult to make that assessment for an individual orchestra, let alone for the entire field. So again, I would rather not make assumptions based on ignorance or, at best, anecdotal evidence from conversation with acquaintances.

We are saying orchestras are dying, and it appears you think they are thriving, or at least you seem to want them and are in denial of the reality. This is why I suggested factual, concrete evidence to show based on a broad span of orchestras to have some metric value. We are talking about a field. Sales for a certain product might be really high in Southbend, IN, but the overall market for the same product has lost 20% in the rest of the midwest and 35% in the entire country. Does it mean it is dying? Maybe not, but the data can show this.

As a performer, I really do not focus on the audience. Audiences may not enjoy a work, numbers may be down, but you can have that one person that really enjoys it that funds the entire group, as Bloke mentioned. You are right Colby, you can't necessarily claim they are dying based on one or two things, but as groups fold and cut services, pay, and positions, it would be foolish to say they aren't dying (might be a particular one or few, but thats why I suggested showing the trends over the major groups over the past 38 years).

Some newspapers are thriving I am sure, but I would not recommend anyone go in a career in the newspaper printing industry. A local group might be selling more physical copies, but as a whole, print media is dying. Media isn't. I will say the same about orchestras. The traditional orchestras "masterworks" concept is dying. Instrumental music isn't dying.

You seem to have missed the part where I was asking for data to support the claim being made. I’m still waiting.

[bloke]

Why not show data that he's wrong?

What's always the big deal with "data", as some excuse to which people always retreat in order to deny the obvious.

I can crank out "data"...but first (please) tell me what the data that I crank out is supposed to demonstrate.

For instance, would you like for it to show that there are 818,000 new jobs created, or just what would you like for it to demonstrate?

[Colby Fahrenbacher]

Why not show data that he's wrong?

What's always the big deal with "data", as some excuse to which people always retreat in order to deny the obvious.

I can crank out "data"...but first (please) tell me what the data that I crank out is supposed to demonstrate.

For instance, would you like for it to show that there are 818,000 new jobs created, or just what would you like for it to demonstrate?

Because I haven't actually made any claims about the state of the field, you have, so the burden of proof is on you. I said earlier, if you could provide any credible source that used a significant amount of data to draw your conclusion, I would be happy to read it. I've already listed a number of criteria that should be considered for such study to be robust and comprehensive, but I am sure there are more.

One I haven't included so far is what we mean by "orchestras are dying". Orchestras on a non-correctable doomsday course to going out of business is distinctly different from orchestras no longer fitting ones political driven preference of business model and repertoire programming. One requires significantly more data to confidently support than the other, though you haven't met even the lower threshold.

Re: "deny the obvious" - The problem with the obvious is that it is based entirely upon one person's perspective (or even a few individuals). There is always a chance they are right, but rather than blindly assuming the "obvious" is true, I would like for you to support the obvious with data.

I mean, if its so obvious, then supporting data should be in abundance.

[russiantuba]

Colby, I don’t have access to this data, or really the time to gather it. I suggested it to you knowing you work for a regional orchestra on the staff, so you have better access to it or know people who might attend the big orchestral conventions and could put it together.

I think you really think I’m against you…I am not.

I did my DMA with a professor who had a full time ICSOM job. His orchestra went under before I went there and it revived, and he was one of the leaders of the revival. It is doing better now but is a mere shadow of itself in number of services and pay.

I went to performances after this of Mahler 6 and Bruckner 9 to empty halls. I went to a Disney show with guest vocalists that was packed to the brim.

As a librarian, in terms of music rentals and rights, what is the difference in cost for one of these Disney shows with a lot of song standards vs Mahler 6? I would ask about the movie screenings where the orchestra plays with the film, but as I learned from doing one this year, the company that puts the show on hires the orchestra.